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Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by adrianN on Friday January 30, 2015 @01:46AM (#8970780)
I wonder how the security on these over-the-air updates is. I'm a little scared of the idea that someone who's not even touching my car might be able to replace the piece of code that connect the brake pedal to the actual brakes.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by alexandros on Friday January 30, 2015 @03:55AM (#8971108)
While I have no knowledge of how Tesla does their OTA, my startup makes software for over-the-air updating, so I can make a few general comments on this.

It may help if you think of your car as just another server. Any connection between the server and client can be encrypted of course, using well-known tools. Besides that, the car can be made to not accept updates that are not signed by the manufacturer, so your only exposure is to the manufacturer.

Of course someone may have physical access to your car and be able to write new software locally, but then they may also be able to do mechanical sabotage, so it's not a new risk.

So you basically have to trade off one kind of security (the manufacturer can update my car remotely) with another (security bug announced in the software my car runs, I am now a sitting duck).

It definitely takes a shift in perspective, but in the brave new world where cars (and other things) run millions of lines of code, over-the-air updates are a necessity. (but of course I'd say that).

I've written a bit more about this conundrum here - https://resin.io/blog/you-cant-secure-what-you-cannot-update...

Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by diminoten on Friday January 30, 2015 @09:34AM (#8972152)
Exactly. If you can't update the car's software, then you can't patch bugs/vulnerabilities.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by martinkl on Friday January 30, 2015 @05:01AM (#8971289)
I don't know about Tesla specifically, but in general the security of embedded firmware is pretty catastrophic [1]. OTA updates are definitely a two-edged sword: on the one hand, they allow vulnerabilities to be fixed (without taking the car to a service center); on the other, the update process can itself be an attack target (e.g. man in the middle serves firmware image with malware included).

[1] https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurit...

Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by phkahler on Friday January 30, 2015 @12:43PM (#8973177)
Digital Signatures on the updates.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by apaprocki on Friday January 30, 2015 @09:40AM (#8972183)
Anyone doing this in a serious fashion will have something similar to this kind of setup:

Device has a per-device key burned in at the factory and the private keys sit in a manufacturer HSM. Updates are signed by the manufacturer and also encrypted with the per-device key for each device. The device itself will have tamper-proof (well, as tamper resistant as they can be) chips and a secure boot-loader that will do all the dirty work.

Nothing is ever 100% secure, but you shouldn't believe it is something similar to a piece of software on your computer where it is just "hit this https URL for the executable and run it". Or maybe you should believe that and force manufacturers to come out and state otherwise :)

Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by NovaS1X on Friday January 30, 2015 @02:13AM (#8970859)
There are mechanical failure modes for these things, as well as multiple electronic ones.

I'm not saying your comment is ungrounded, I'm just saying that a process locking up or sending wrong information is not likely, or even possible, to net you 100% loss of use in your brakes.

Cars are the most highly regulated consumer product on earth. Brake systems nor Tesla fly under the radar here.

Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by serf on Friday January 30, 2015 @02:26AM (#8970897)
Cars are the most highly regulated consumer product on earth. Brake systems nor Tesla fly under the radar here.

I felt that way too, til I watched few of the talks from the people that were doing the testing of Toyota electronics after all of the unintended acceleration problems.[1]

Did you realize, for example, that while there are coding standards that one should adhere to while doing embedded systems-critical stuff (like MISRA guidelines), there are no requirements for automotive companies to adhere to any such software standardization, and that it's left up to the individual manufacturers to decide upon standards?

The US automotive industry is unique in that it doesn't have a rigor requirement for software. Planes and heavy equipment do have such requirements within the states.

Toyota didn't even use bug tracking or source management, and used their own software guidelines. That's scary given the complexity is so high that the entire system cannot be fully tested in a feasible way.

Atop the software issues, the hardware ECM was made in such a way so as to make the secondary 'cross-checking' processor basically useless. Both CPUs were checking the same I/O, if that was the fault then BOTH would read bad data, and the hardware was made in such a way as to make that impossible to work around.

An old Camry isn't anywhere near as complex as a modern electric car, and I personally have more faith in Tesla than I do Toyota, but it makes me want to push US legislation into requiring US auto manufacturers into following the strict software guidelines that are available to them.

Fun trivia: MISRA guidelines were originally pushed by the automotive industry in the early 90s/late 80s, and now they are one of the only critical systems groups to not follow them.

[1]:http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/pubs/koopman14_toyota_ua_s...

Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by NovaS1X on Friday January 30, 2015 @01:47PM (#8973601)
Those are pretty good points, and I didn't realize that auto manufacturers had the level of freedom in ECU software.

As far as Toyota is concerned, right now I'd trust them as much, of not more, than Tesla. Tesla has been doing great things and doesn't have much, if any, of a bad track record for failures. However, you have to realize that Toyota has also been making cars far longer than Tesla, produce more, and has one of the best reliability ratings in the industry.

I believe Tesla can achieve this or better. However, it's hard to compare when Tesla doesn't have the numbers that Toyota has.

Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by kbenson on Friday January 30, 2015 @10:39AM (#8972501)
I imagine Tesla would love this. My guess is that Tesla has much more rigorous software practices, given Musk's software engineering background.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by nodesocket on Friday January 30, 2015 @01:59AM (#8970824)
I have to imagine their software testing processes are absolutely ridiculous and touch every possible permutation of the code.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by kylec on Friday January 30, 2015 @02:05AM (#8970838)
I would have said the same thing about Apple, then they released an update that make the iPhone 6 unable to make calls. Mistakes happen, and your car could be bricked by one.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by drzaiusapelord on Friday January 30, 2015 @10:46AM (#8972534)
I hate the idea that Apple or Google are examples of good embedded coding and their defect ratio is the best humanity can get. I don't understand how people think this way. Embedded development has a very different culture and lower tolerance of faults than general development and ESPECIALLY mobile development which is a nightmarish show of amateur hour.

I have no idea how Tesla does this, but in most cases you're deal with deterministic software or real time OS's, massive testing suites, coding guidelines that guarantee positive outcomes, etc.

JPL published its guidelines. Do you think Google and Apple are this stringent with their mobile toys? Of course not. They have zero economic interest to do so. They just have to make things good enough that kids and housewives won't complain too much.

http://spinroot.com/gerard/pdf/P10.pdf

or more specific to autos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C

Mistakes will always happen, but Apple or Google are not good examples of what well written software is.

Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by sliverstorm on Friday January 30, 2015 @02:33AM (#8970919)
Hell, even if you like to believe mistakes only happen to some people- Musk clearly falls in the group of "has made mistakes". SpaceX is proof his ventures are not immune to error.

Which is fine, but I'm unnerved hearing the people who seem to consider Tesla infallible. 'They'll never make a mistake like that, they're Tesla!'

Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by sp332 on Friday January 30, 2015 @11:32AM (#8972764)
They made fewer mistakes than anyone else ever has when landing a reusable rocket from orbit that way. I'd be OK with driving a car made by someone with that track record.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by benplumley on Friday January 30, 2015 @05:04AM (#8971296)
I'll bite; why do you think SpaceX was a mistake? They've had some pretty impressive achievements, all while actually making profit. Unless you meant individual errors like this month's landing attempt.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by mattlutze on Friday January 30, 2015 @08:28AM (#8971853)
> SpaceX is proof his ventures are not immune to error.

Errors probably means errors here. As in yeah, most recently trying to land a booster on a barge and missing.

Mistakes happen. The wrong number in a configuration somewhere and everyone's car suddenly has a vampire that sucks down the battery 50% faster, or causes a misreading of wheel speed for anti-lock braking, or etc.

Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by ceejayoz on Friday January 30, 2015 @09:04AM (#8972021)
I really don't think you can consider SpaceX's first actual real-world test of a technology to be an error.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by u02sgb on Friday January 30, 2015 @06:05AM (#8971462)
Do you mean "SpaceX was a mistake"? To me it read "SpaceX has made mistakes" (which you'd expect working with nascent technology).
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by mirimir on Friday January 30, 2015 @02:49AM (#8970960)
I'm assuming that there's an option to require approval before installing downloaded updates. Yes?
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by threeseed on Friday January 30, 2015 @04:48AM (#8971250)
So what if there was ? Everybody including myself (technical) would just install it regardless. We place faith in companies having proper testing procedures.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by mirimir on Friday January 30, 2015 @06:20AM (#8971501)
Yes, but I'd install it in the driveway, and not on the freeway ;)
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by saiya-jin on Friday January 30, 2015 @10:39AM (#8972499)
... and would you then test all critical systems, one by one, when having morning rush to work in example?

Once you trust you trust, and if you don't, you don't update. Not much space between (for me) ...

Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by Vraxx on Friday January 30, 2015 @11:36AM (#8972791)
I'm assuming if you didn't have to accept immediately that you could push it off until you have time to do so. In addition just knowing that there is an update is a boon on it's own. If I know that the code has changed on my car and something starts acting funny, I'm a lot more likely to suspect the software and report issues properly than if it stealth changes it (I would assume mechanical wear and tear at that point).
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by mirimir on Friday January 30, 2015 @07:28PM (#8975376)
I don't have an updatable car. But I have used Windows. And it's become my practice to hold off for a few days after updates come out, and check for horror stories. And I typically do a manual backup before updating.
Re:Tesla’s P85D Will Get Even Faster Thanks to a Software Up... by spyder on Friday January 30, 2015 @01:22PM (#8973432)
I think they already doing the same: applying the update at the next "reboot" car start, and it's unlikely that the downloaded update is hot-swapping the running code.