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Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by gknoy on Monday January 05, 2015 @03:51PM (#8841064)
"... from approximately 1 m using a ... 39 megapixel digital camera ... with 120 mm macro lens"

Good news: At least we can still trust that normaly surveillance cameras won't have the kind of resolution to perform this feat.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by ChuckMcM on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:09PM (#8841169)
And the thing about technology is, it keeps moving forward.

I was remarking the other day about some neighbors who caught the folks who broke into their house because a person across the street had a 1080p video camera which caught them going over the side fence (and fortunately facing the street).

And in my personal experience of "Imagine you could play a game where the graphics card would realistically render the battle from any angle in real time! No way, too much compute needed." where I really missed the notion that multi-core GPUs would grow like they had.

What this research says is that when you have pictures of people from high resolution cameras, that have high dynamic range, you will be able to pull out faces of people near them from corneal reflections. That won't be today obviously, it might not be five years from now, but don't count it out as "never."

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by TheCraiggers on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:35PM (#8841344)
It seems there would be a point at which you reach maximum information density with camera sensors. Not due to limitations of technology, but the nature of light itself and the optics.

Optics is nowhere near my specialty, but it does seem to me that you can only capture so much light with a lens, no matter how optically perfect it is, before diffraction causes you to lose information. Of course, bigger / more numerous lenses & sensors would alleviate this, but then that's probably not going to be stealthy. So, I don't see how improved technology (a sudden breakthrough in how light works notwithstanding) will fix this.

Please, could anybody in optics weigh in on this, perhaps with some math? I'm very much curious what the upper limit would be for a typical piece of 3" glass.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by eslaught on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:55PM (#8841472)
Diffraction limits are most visible for small apertures (high f-numbers). For surveillance cameras, I would expect* sensor size to be the bigger issue, because as long as sensor size is fixed, signal to noise will be limited by photon noise (the noise created by the randomness of photons themselves), no matter how good the sensor is.

Realistically, if this is a goal, then manufacturers will just increase the sensor size until the goal is met. This isn't a cell phone, so the sensor size constraints are pretty forgiving for this platform.

* Note: I am no optics expect, this is just what I've picked up on my own.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by Houshalter on Tuesday January 06, 2015 @01:25AM (#8843172)
Here is a lens free camera http://www.technologyreview.com/news/525731/lens-free-camera...

It's incredibly tiny. As I understand it they etch individual pixels onto it, each of which can only receive light from a specific angle. As you make it larger and larger you can absorb more and more light at higher and higher resolutions, without dealing with lenses.

Although even lenses can do insane things like magnify individual cells to be human visible, or take pictures of distant galaxies. I don't know why everyone is so skeptical of merely photographing someone's eye.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by jacquesm on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:50PM (#8841448)
Holographs are made right down to the spatial resolution of light, the interference patterns between light-as-a-wave from two different angles are what's laid down. So you could do a lot better spatially than what we do today.

Typical cell spacing is between 3 and 10 micro meter right now iirc and red light is around 650 nm, so about a factor of 5 to 10 or thereabouts.

Biggest enemies are not incident light quantity but thermal noise, as you get smaller in cell size that becomes a real problem (you can alleviate that with cooling).

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by bsder on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:40PM (#8841384)
> It seems there would be a point at which you reach maximum information density with camera sensors. Not due to limitations of technology, but the nature of light itself and the optics.

That is true--with a single camera.

At some point, we will have so many cameras facing an objective that you can exceed the limits of individual optics.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by Someone on Monday January 05, 2015 @05:00PM (#8841498)
You can also try and integrate over time. Complex? Definitely. Not an exact science because you will have to estimate the motion of both the eyeball and the subject you are trying to identify? Yes (in most cases). Feasible? In some cases: probably.

And that, too, will get better with better hardware. At first, you may only be able to detect hair color and rough hair length in cases where the person being identified has a nice silhouette against an evenly lit sky, but that already is something.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by biot on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:55PM (#8841474)
There is also the diffraction limit[0] which, until materials are developed which have negative refractive indexes for visible light, imposes a maximum on the available resolution. Of course, that's for a single capture source... photosynth + Blade Runner will likely get us a bit further.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction-limited_system

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by mikeash on Monday January 05, 2015 @08:38PM (#8842461)
The discussion about physical limits and technological difficulties is interesting, but not ultimately relevant for the surveillance question. Even if this technique becomes feasible for use in the real world, it'll still be more expensive than just putting up a second camera pointing the other way.
Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by MingVen on Monday January 05, 2015 @03:58PM (#8841106)
'Forza Silicon introduces 100MP+ (~18k resolution) for US surveillance'

http://www.forzasilicon.com/2014/01/high-resolution-camera-f...

http://www.studiodaily.com/2014/04/so-you-think-4k-and-8k-lo...

"[...] Forza Silicon, which is introducing a new customizable video-camera platform that can reach "resolutions approaching 200 megapixels" at 60fps"

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by Houshalter on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:13PM (#8841197)
For the time being. It is a concern for the future. For example, here is a tiny super cheap, lens-free camera: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/525731/lens-free-camera...

And there is "super-resolution" which combines multiple low-res pictures (e.g. frames of a video) into a single high resolution image: http://vimeo.com/6608238

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by ctdonath on Tuesday January 06, 2015 @10:44AM (#8844841)
tiny super cheap, lens-free camera

Cover a wall with those. Full 3D capture.

Intersperse those on that wall with tiny pods of directional LEDs. Think "lenticular 3D" but with hemispheres instead of half-cylinders.

Remotely connect two of these walls. Result is a virtual 2-way window, with full natural 3D viewing without headgear. Could revolutionize teleconferencing: participant(s) are "just" on the other side of a glass wall...with the "other side" any distance away. Bandwidth required may be staggering relative to current video, yet is currently manageable.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by Carrok on Monday January 05, 2015 @03:55PM (#8841093)
They don't need to, they just have another camera from the other angle.
Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by boxey on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:01PM (#8841122)
... with 2x Bowens DX1000 1kW flash lamps with dish reflectors to illuminate the bystanders at a distance of 1 meter.

That's ridiculous. Why is this even published?

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by hvidgaard on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:04PM (#8841149)
The point is that the information is clearly there, and with current technology it is possible to extract it under ideal circumstances. It's not to say it's feasible or will be, but it's not hard to imagine sensors becoming advanced enough to capture the required light without using a special lens and artificially illuminate the bystanders.
Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by boxey on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:16PM (#8841223)
Wrong, current image sensors have around ~50% quantum efficiency nowadays. [1] That's 1 f-stop from the theoretical maximum, while they're pushing around 10 f-stops above the top-of-the-line mobile phone cam / security cam.

The pace of technology is still limited by physics - if they take out the 2kW monster flash then the lens size needs to be increased to a diameter of several meters, just to maintain the same performance at a distance of 1 meter (!).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_efficiency

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by aeturnum on Monday January 05, 2015 @06:26PM (#8841955)
You're missing the point. This is not a paper on image acquisition, it is a paper on image processing. Because they began from scratch, they used very favorable image conditions. They are not pushing the idea that their capture format is representative of an application.

We have no idea how hard it would be to recover an image using 50-5% of the light. No one has written that paper. Same for resolution. The paper does not claim to address that question so it seems silly to critique it for not doing so.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by Houshalter on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:28PM (#8841300)
You can just absorb more light from a larger area then. We have microscopes that can see individual cells and telescopes that can see distant galaxies. There is nothing impossible zooming in on someone's eye.
Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by roel_v on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:04PM (#8841145)
Because if it's possible in lab circumstances today, then it'll probably be possible in less restrictive circumstances in 10 years?

There are so many papers published based on very artificial circumstances on stuff that is later developed into usable things...

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by alkonaut on Monday January 05, 2015 @05:48PM (#8841769)
The resolution and light gathering requirements should be pretty easy to analyze on paper to answer the question "will this ever be usable in practice"? The fact that this isn't done could suggest that the answer really is no, so the authors omitted it.

I'm sceptic that it will ever be even close to usable assuming sensor tech wont improve much and we don't reach some breakthrough in optics, i.e. bending light without huge heavy chunks of glass.

This experiment with huge flash guns and short distances is essentially like identifying the moon in an eye reflection and dreaming of doing deep space imaging the same way. The physics just don't allow it.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by roel_v on Tuesday January 06, 2015 @04:46AM (#8843574)
"The resolution and light gathering requirements should be pretty easy to analyze on paper"

Then why don't you?

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by alkonaut on Tuesday January 06, 2015 @09:30AM (#8844446)
Because I meant it should be easy for the guys who wrote this article, not for me. If I did them no one would believe me (and they shouldn't!).
Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by gamache on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:03PM (#8841134)
This is a proof-of-concept. Sure, the conditions are ideal, but this is the first time anyone has made this work at all. Of course they're not going to start with a $20 digicam and a dimly-lit room.
Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by uptown on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:04PM (#8841148)
Because things that seem ridiculous have a tendency to become not ridiculous over time given the pace that technology advances.
Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by someengineer on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:40PM (#8841376)
Though everyone'll flame you about "the future", you're probably right.

If you read the PLOS One acceptance criteria:

http://www.plosone.org/static/publication

you'll notice that scientific merit doesn't show up in there. The official policy is that if the methods and analysis are sound, then it will be accepted regardless of how irrelevant the actual study is. This is well known in academia and has resulted in a generally negative opinion of the journal among publishing researchers.

edit: I'd also like to point out that this isn't the case for all PLOS publications.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by boxey on Monday January 05, 2015 @05:19PM (#8841617)
Yeah, I touched a sensitive nerve. It seems "the future" is interpreted by some as "Moore's law applied to everything", with gross disregard to physics, no thermal or optical or energy limits etc.

Year 2000 has passed, and we're all still waiting for our flying cars.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by TeMPOraL on Monday January 05, 2015 @06:19PM (#8841923)
The reason we don't have flying cars is economics, not physics.

Also, people tend to totally overestimate limits of possibility. We haven't explored a lot of things that are possible with our current level of technology (again, mostly because economics). Moreover, our image processing algorithms are very crude. We're nowhere near efficient use of information encoded in images (in a way a theoretical Bayesian superintelligence would). A lot of things thought impossible become possible when you start throwing more and more "compute" at it. You can't break the laws of physics, but those laws are quite lenient.

Re:Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal ... by goatforce5 on Monday January 05, 2015 @04:19PM (#8841249)
I'm sure it's highly relevant and interesting to spy or (counter-)surveillance-type agencies.