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Re:India’s Downward Spiral by manish_gill on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @01:13AM (#8485984)
Worse yet, Indian government is apparently trying hard to emulate NSA's Surveillance Programs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A91idibgT0&feature=youtu.be

Here's the video's info:

"""India is currently implementing some of the scariest surveillance schemes in the world. This lecture will shed light on India's surveillance industry, its UID scheme which aims at the collection of all biometric data and on various controversial surveillance schemes, such as the Central Monitoring System (CMS).

When it comes to surveillance, the most mainstream argument is that the majority of India's population lives below the poverty line and that surveillance is an elitist issue - and not a "real" issue which affects the masses. Given that the majority of India's population has mobile phones and that the Indian government is currently implementing the Central Monitoring System (CMS) which aims at intercepting all telecommunications (and Internet communications), surveillance does not appear to be an elitist issue. Given that the UID scheme aims at collecting the biometric data of all citizens residing in India and that most BPL cash programmes require UID registration, surveillance appears to be an issue which (unfortunately) affects the 1.2 billion people currently living in India. And this is to say the least. As part of the Privacy Project, the Centre for Internet and Society (CIS) in Bangalore, India, is investigating surveillance within the country. The project is funded by Privacy International and aims to map out various forms of surveillance in India, ranging from drones, CCTV cameras and GPS tracking equipment to phone and Internet monitoring gear. This lecture aims to present the research that Maria Xynou has undertaken at the CIS so far, which includes data on the various surveillance technology companies operating in India and the type of spy gear they sell to Indian law enforcement agencies. This research also includes the presentation of India's various controversial surveillance schemes, with an emphasis on the Central Monitoring System (CMS) which unlawfully enables the interception of all telecommunications and Internet communications. India is currently implementing the world's largest biometric data collection and interception of communications schemes. The aim of this lecture is to present India's scary mass surveillance and to discuss its implications on the right to privacy and other human rights."""

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by virtuabhi on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @01:54AM (#8486116)
This is the first time I have seen UID scheme being mentioned as a surveillance tool. The aim of the scheme is to replace the outdated mechanisms - signature, name and address papers which can easily be forged. Why poor people are encouraged to register under the UID scheme? So that the benefits provided by India's socialist governments (central and state) can reach them without any corruption or delay. The fear of it being misused is currently unjustified and without any proof.

Secondly, I think most people over-estimate the Indian government's technical ability. We are nowhere near US or China in mass surveillance. No Indian agency has the expertise anywhere near NSA or PLA Unit 61398. And unlike in China where there are many popular local tech companies, Indians use products of American companies (Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.). So the government can neither ask the companies for data (like US) nor get the companies to actively participate in any form of censorship (like China). As long as the US companies follow basic security practices (HTTPS, SSL, 2-step verification, etc..) and don't sell out, we should be fine on the internet.

(Disclaimer: Indian citizen)

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by 3838 on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @03:47AM (#8486347)
other governments have proposed similar things - in europe there is a widespread distrust of these systems because they were used very effectively by the Nazi's - record keeping in the Netherlands was very good - 75% of jews were killed, in france the people collecting data conspired to protect jews by not punching the jew slot on the punched card and only 25% were killed

a belgian company sold an ID system to the rwandan government, it was used by one tribe to find people from another tribe so they could kill them

these systems are deadly in the wrong hands - if the info is not there, it can't be abused.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by mogrim on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @10:12AM (#8487399)
> in europe there is a widespread distrust of these systems

What makes you think that? In the UK maybe, but certainly in Spain no one thinks twice about their ID cards. It's just something you have and use to identify yourself - both in public administration and in private transactions, for example paying money into a bank over the counter.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by 3838 on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @01:26PM (#8488476)
there are other countries apart from the uk and spain in europe
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by Ma8ee on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @08:45AM (#8487009)
We have had Personal identity number system in Sweden since 1947. Maybe because we where spared most of the atrocities of WWII I don't know of any strong resistance against it. But it is also combined with laws that strongly forbid registration of some types of information, such as ethnic group or political leaning.

And it is oh so convenient! I'm moving in a few weeks, and I had to fill in a form on a website and the tax authorities sent me some papers to sign and return. And that is all! Now all government agencies, the banks and larger companies that I deal with, and all magazines I subscribe to will have my new correct address in their system within days.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by TazeTSchnitzel on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @06:34AM (#8486722)
The Nazis didn't need IDs, they just used census data.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by virtuabhi on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @07:23PM (#8490749)
I do not agree with the point that if Nazis used X to kill Jews then we should not use X. For example, Nazis used trains to transport arrested Jews. No government should build railroads then?

"these systems are deadly in the wrong hands" - In the context of this thread, I hope you are not comparing Indian government with the Nazis. Such a comparison would be misusing the Nazi term and insulting the severity of crimes committed against Jews.

"if the info is not there, it can't be abused" - We can't move to the stone age now. Your car registration details at the DMV can be used against you. Your SSN details can be used against you. Information is stored about every citizen, in every country.

I hope that people realize that schemes such as UID present many benefits - reducing corruption, bring transparency, and ultimately, giving power to the people.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by 3838 on Saturday October 25, 2014 @02:59PM (#8509006)
railroads is a foolish argument

i wasn't comparing the Indian government with the Nazi's - but i will say there has been a long history of religious bloodshed in India, it doesn't take a major leap of imagination to see that someone with nefarious intent towards Hindu's, Muslims, Sikh's etc should not have access to extensive information about them - human nature being what it is, and looking at what has happened in those circumstances throughout history.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by keenerd on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @09:06AM (#8487088)
> We are nowhere near US or China in mass surveillance.

Just because no one else in here (or even the original article) has mentioned it: cell phone encryption is illegal in India. All GSM is done in the clear. Think about that for a second. It means any citizen with a few hundred dollars worth of hardware can rival the best abilities of the NSA.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by tormeh on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @10:05AM (#8487362)
Are you sure? I thought GSM was encrypted by definition. I know it's been used as a NATO backup communications channel. Once the signal hits the base station, though, it's usually sent unencrypted down the wire.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by keenerd on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @01:50PM (#8488656)
India uses A5/0: http://tech.firstpost.com/news-analysis/gsm-india-26616.html

Blackberry threatened with suspension because of encryption: http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igeneration/blackberry-india/5732

(I guess not all GSM is done in the clear since you can use encryption but must share your keys.)

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by maxerickson on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @10:13AM (#8487407)
The tower can (unilaterally, probably without any notification on the handset) select "A5/0" as the encryption algorithm. That's no encryption.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by tormeh on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @10:20AM (#8487452)
Oh, ok, news to me, but it sounds plausible.

.... But, uh, why would the government require that, when they can just listen to the signal after it's been unencrypted at the base station?

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by TheLoneWolfling on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @10:43AM (#8487563)
So that not even the people at the cell phone base station know just how absurdly much data they are pulling in.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by virtuabhi on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @02:15AM (#8486163)
Edit: Cannot reply to "monsterix"'s comment. The only relevant line in the posted link [1] is "However, a complaint regarding misuse of address proof was received". Is there something I have missed?

[1] http://www.rediff.com/news/report/uidai-gets-first-complaint...

Edit: I see two more new links.

One of them talks that a NGO has filed a case against UID agency. Government's welfare schemes now require UID. Why? I have given some of the reasons in the first paragraph of the parent comment.

For the second link, government wants everyone to have a bank account. Because now the money from different welfare programs will be directly transferred to the bank accounts. No need to go to government office and collect money. Please read more explanation towards the end of the article you posted!

Edit: Your claim: "I know at least 22 cases that have been suppressed". What you have provided: 3 links from a quick Google search, that too without checking their content.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by Nano2rad on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @05:08AM (#8486534)
UID is clearly surveillance tool. Its aim is to make the citizen's feel powerless. The scheme can be implemented with single fingerprint to prevent duplication, still iris scan is done. The privacy law is still not passed which could limit the access of UID data. It was forced on banks and petroleum marketers undemocratically.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by zo1 on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @02:24PM (#8488879)
"It was forced on banks and petroleum marketers undemocratically."

Oh, so their elected officials weren't really elected democratically? Because, you know, that's something you have to prove first before you can make assertions such as the one above.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by Nano2rad on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @03:41PM (#8489393)
Nilekani's appointment itself was undemocratic
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by eitally on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @12:46PM (#8488244)
Perhaps they don't have the homegrown ability, but when they restrict access to a market of 1b+ consumers, that helps "convince" a lot of companies to do it for them. You probably remember this: http://www.heydary.com/publications/Inside-the-Rim-Decryptin...
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by monsterix on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @02:12AM (#8486156)
> The fear of it being misused is currently unjustified and without any proof.

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/uidai-gets-first-complaint...

http://kractivist.wordpress.com/2013/01/24/india-your-aadhaa...

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/aadhar-scheme-how-safe-an...

I know at least 22 cases that have been suppressed so far. You can safely assume the number to be much higher, misunderstood and often under-reported. Dig deep and you'll find a lot of unreported reality!

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by pessimizer on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @10:41AM (#8487555)
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by general_failure on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @11:05AM (#8487702)
You grossly underestimated India based on the politicians. Dude they just sent a rocket to mars.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by srcmap on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @09:07AM (#8487092)
https is not that secure, most of the root ca are owned by big corp/gov. It is trivial for any big gov to decode your https traffic.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by astrange on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @03:05PM (#8489135)
It is not trivial, and you'd get found out and lose the CA.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by enlightenedfool on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @10:16AM (#8487424)
Yeah...no way India can invest billions of dollars storing and processing peta bytes of data like NSA does. Its just too poor to do that.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by ihsw on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @10:25AM (#8487476)
You don't just buy the hardware, you have to maintain a staff of individuals with the related expertise. This is difficult to achieve on a scale that the US Government does with the NSA et al.

Right now a lot of ex-intelligence employees are whoring themselves out to state governments and international businesses, offering their products and consulting services. There's a lot of money to be made, especially since a lot of the expertise is held quite tightly by the incumbents.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by superuser2 on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @04:25AM (#8486427)
The HN libertarians, for some reason, have an incredibly strongly held conviction that governments should not be able to identify their citizens, even in person, even for legitimate reasons. If you support any reasonably secure government-operated authentication system on HN, you will be downvoted to oblivion (as you just were).
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by pjc50 on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @04:53AM (#8486496)
governments should not be able to identify their citizens

This is subtly different from "citizens can authenticate themselves to the government". Universal identity systems result in no place to hide from the system, which can be used against people that the government (or individual corrupt officials!) doesn't like.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by tptacek on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @12:54PM (#8488283)
I'm not a libertarian (for HN, in fact, I qualify as a statist) and I have a problem with universal identification. I thought we had a decent balance struck before Hiibel.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by nickff on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @12:25PM (#8488112)
>"reasonably secure government-operated authentication system"

Do you believe that the government can keep private information on a need-to-know basis? There is a lot of evidence they cannot.[1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOVEINT

[deleted]
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by superuser2 on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @04:34AM (#8486442)
What argument?
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by chunky1994 on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @01:36AM (#8486073)
While I admit the government is trying to censor (or was, I've yet to see any evidence of this from the current government) certain politically critical articles etc. and I am unaware of the true extent of the CMS, the part about the UID program seems rather sensationalist and fear-mongering, since the primary aim of the UID program is the ability to identify the citizens of India similar to the US social security number system.

The reason we need this biomertic data would be to ascertain the identity of over a billion people where unique names, places of birth and the existence of birth certificates aren't the norm, not in order to constantly police the populace.

If you could make more explicit the problems with gathering biometric data of citizens, (which shouldn't be used for security purposes anyway) then I'm sure I would get a better understanding of your position.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by higherpurpose on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @02:33AM (#8486203)
Surely there are better ways to identify someone than get their fingerprint, especally if they bothererd to called everyone to the police headquarters to get their fingerprint.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by _nedR on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @04:43AM (#8486472)
Its not just fingerprint (all 10 finger impressions actually) but also retinal scans. And the govt. is gradually making it mandatory for everything from getting 50% subsidies on cooking gas to opening a bank account. It is probably the most ambitious and encompassing citizen database in the world.

And there is practically zero debate on the issues:

1. Is the govt. capable and competent enough to keep the data safe from external and internal threats ( If I had to put money, I would say all or part of the data has already made its way to at least one foreign govt.)

2. Are there enough safeguards in place to prevent this data from being misused? In a country with widespread and endemic corruption and where there have been incidents of govt. indifference or even collusion in events that cost thousands of lives and/or billions of dollars; Can the govt. be trusted with this data at all?

3. Is such a system (whose capabilities and scope far exceed those of most if not all first-world countries) really a priority in a country with grinding poverty, societal issues, illiteracy, inadequate healthcare, poor sanitation, corruption, decrepit infrastructure.

Right now, the Indian masses are probably not educated enough on the issues to have this debate and the govt. is using this fact to try and deploy it as fast as possible.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by lucaspiller on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @05:07AM (#8486533)
The system in the UAE is similar, but if anything more encompassing. You need a government issued ID card for pretty much everything: renting an apartment, opening a bank account, getting a SIM card (unless you are a tourist in which case you just need a passport), renting a car.

Since 2005 to get this you need a medical blood and X-ray test (to ensure you don't have HIV or TB - I wouldn't be surprised if DNA was analysed too), prints of all 10 and the sides of your hands and retinal scans. Last year the relevant authoring announced it had biometrics for 118 million people [0], which considering the population is just under 10 million isn't bad (there is a high turnover in expat workers).

The ID cards are actually quite advanced, they contain the biometrics and PKI. Pretty much everyone (even government authorities) still use signatures and photocopies of the cards for verification though...

[0] http://www.id.gov.ae/en/media-centre/news/2013/7/9/emirates-...

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by _nedR on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @12:55PM (#8488293)
Wow, that is interesting and disturbing. India is not quite there yet.. But I would put it down to bureaucratic inertia rather than lack of intention.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by enlightenedfool on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @10:24AM (#8487474)
Good points. It's not unreasonable to assume the problems you mentioned are reality. It would take a couple of generations for people to even start to notice the harm that has been done
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by anuragbiyani on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @02:59AM (#8486255)
> "especally if they bothererd to called everyone to the police headquarters to get their fingerprint."

What !? This statement has NO factual basis, and is completely incorrect. (PS: I have a Aadhaar card (aka UID) myself).

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by jacalata on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @02:56AM (#8486250)
Like what? Bear in mind that the country has a 75% literacy rate.
[dead]
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by nhaehnle on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @03:20AM (#8486297)
Are you sure you properly understand what "hacker" means in this context? I think it's fair to say that some people in the grey to black spectrum also attend the CCC, but overall, yes, people there are genuinely committed to free expression (by everybody, most importantly of course by innocent people). They are using the word "hacker" in the original sense of the word (tinkering with technology etc.)

What you're saying is like the false claim that Tor is only used by criminals - when in reality, it is used by all sorts of people, including law enforcement themselves!

[dead]
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by cubancigar11 on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @07:39AM (#8486842)
My wife has left me. And my phone is getting surveilled. Don't ask me how I know it. What do you think I should do? - An Indian in Varanasi. BTW, there is no complaint against me and I am being visited by police every week.

Ground reality is a bitch.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by bipin-nag on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @09:47AM (#8487265)
Can you give a source. That looks very made-up.
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by cubancigar11 on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @10:06AM (#8487364)
What source you want? You seriously don't expect me to public my identity here, do you?

I was about to give you my case number of anticipatory bail. But seriously, what source you want?

EDIT: On more thought, if you really want to know the ground reality you can call anyone in http://www.saveindianfamily.org/ . Their Bangalore chapter know my case.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by skrebbel on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @05:44AM (#8486633)
May I remind you that you are posting on a site called "Hacker News"?
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by mkal_tsr on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @03:18AM (#8486293)
Why should it be downvoted?
Re:India’s Downward Spiral by bipin-nag on Tuesday October 21, 2014 @05:03AM (#8486520)
See my above reply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8486513.

I would reiterate that the parent was just sensational, and it is a far cry from the surveillance done by U.S.

Re:India’s Downward Spiral by kragen on Wednesday October 22, 2014 @02:01PM (#8494068)
May I suggest that you stop using the internet until you learn to respect and appreciate the hackers who built it? You should be ashamed of your ignorance. You are launching vicious attacks on hackers, claiming we aren't human-rights activists, that we are criminals, that we are selfish, and that we aren't known for our humanitarian efforts. None of these things are true.