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Re:Shall we fork Debian? by captainmuon on Sunday October 19, 2014 @05:38AM (#8477763)
> The issue is that Gnome, KDE, and other software requires systemd.

This I can't wrap my head around, why does Gnome for example need systemd? There are standard ways on GNU/Linux to do everything it needs in a unix fashion (by deferring to small specialized tools):

    shutdown
    reboot
    whoami
    uname
    mount
    ...
These and similar tools (or libc functions) give you all information you need (username, etc.) and system functions a desktop environment needs (reboot, hibernate). You then only need something like udev for plug-and-play (which is available without systemd, and as a part of it), and interfaces to the X/Wayland server and the audio system (which are both not a part of systemd). This seems to be all stuff that can easily be abstracted away in one module per OS. I don't see why you have to tightly couple your DE to systemd. (Unless, you are using your DE as a vehicle to push systemd, which I hope is not the case...)
Re:Shall we fork Debian? by asdfaoeu on Sunday October 19, 2014 @05:50AM (#8477792)
Systemd provides interfaces to reboot/shutdown as non root api which is controlled by polkit. It also allows a non root process running as part of an active session to get the DRM FD and other device FDs as part of the logind interface.
Re:Shall we fork Debian? by grifferz on Sunday October 19, 2014 @09:38AM (#8478200)
This I can't wrap my head around, why does Gnome for example need systemd?

Here's a good summary of the issue: http://homepage.ntlworld.com./jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/de...

A bad thing about systemd and where we are now is the ever-changing API that is mentioned, which hampers alternatives to systemd.

But, that is where we are now, Debian isn't in much of a position to change that, and forking probably isn't going to help with that. Debian wasn't ignorant of that either; these issues were discussed at length in the tech committee debate that originally settled on systemd being the default for jessie.

Re:Shall we fork Debian? by nslqqq on Sunday October 19, 2014 @06:50AM (#8477904)
Modern DE's also depend on logind. Which could be replaced with non systemd implementation that has same interface on dbus.
Re:Shall we fork Debian? by makomk on Sunday October 19, 2014 @07:58AM (#8478007)
To give people some idea of how practical a non-systemd implementation of logind's dbus API is, here's the documentation for it: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/logind/

It's big, gnarly, essentially undocumented, and contains a bunch of features to support tricky cases like multiseat machines (systems with two or more sets of keyboard, mouse and monitor, each with a different user) that are rarely used but still need to be supported because the API's designed around them. Even the systemd developers don't think a reimplementation is feasible.

Re:Shall we fork Debian? by the_why_of_y on Sunday October 19, 2014 @07:17AM (#8477943)
Please read these posts by David Herrmann to get an idea of the improvements in reliability that systemd-logind provides to desktops:

http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/session-management-on...

http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/how-vt-switching-work...

http://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/sane-session-switchin...

Re:Shall we fork Debian? by Xylemon on Sunday October 19, 2014 @06:22AM (#8477848)
I feel that the only reason Gnome needs SystemD is because RedHat said so. I honestly think making a DE require a specific init system is silly.