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Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by rthomas6 on Monday October 13, 2014 @02:28PM (#8449892)
It's easy to forget how much disease aided in the European colonization of America.

"The Mayflower first hove to at Cape Cod. An armed company staggered out. Eventually it found a recently deserted Indian settlement. The newcomers—hungry, cold, sick—dug up graves and ransacked houses, looking for underground stashes of corn. [. . .] When the colonists came to Plymouth, a month later, they set up shop in another deserted Indian village. All through the coastal forest the Indians had "died on heapes, as they lay in their houses," the English trader Thomas Morton noted."

The native Americans didn't have the same natural resistances to the diseases the Europeans brought. At some points, Smallpox traveled so quickly through the native populations that whole villages would die before the Europeans even got there.

Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by turar on Monday October 13, 2014 @03:11PM (#8450059)
When you think about the differences between human results of North American vs. South American colonization by Europeans, it becomes clear that there was something more at play than just the clean and guilt-free narrative of "disease wiped out the Natives" that is being taught in North American schools.

Today, only in the US and Canada, i.e. Anglo-Saxon colonies, the Native populations are dismally low. Just across the border in Mexico you already start seeing largely Native and mixed Native-European populations thriving, instead of being wiped out. The same story continues throughout Central and Latin Americas.

Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by benbreen on Monday October 13, 2014 @03:32PM (#8450148)
Mann talks about this in the book version of 1491, as does the historian David Noble Cook in Born to Die: Disease and New World Conquest. Neither are trying to claim (at all) that the enormous population declines of the early modern period were due only to disease, or to minimize the role of mass murders, intentional starvation, wars, etc. But this comment fails to consider the demography of the New World prior to 1492. Mesoamerica and the Andes (modern day Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Ecuador, etc.) were home to widespread agricultural civilizations with settled urban populations. In fact, pre-Columbian Mexico City was one of the largest urban areas in the world (early conquistadors described it as like Venice, but bigger).

Granted, agricultural societies existed in North America too, but aside from the pueblos in New Mexico and some urbanized communities associated with the Mississippi Valley Civilization and its offshoots, the population density and urbanization didn't compare to Mesoamerica and the Andes. This has a lot to do with why present-day Mexico, Peru, Bolivia, etc. have large indigenous communities relative to Canada and the US: there were higher populations there to begin with. It doesn't necessarily mean that the proportion lost to disease and warfare was any less.

Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by te_chris on Monday October 13, 2014 @06:14PM (#8450972)
The history of Mexico and mesoamerica in general is fascinating. I was lucky enough to spend a week in D.F. (Mexico City) in January and I fell in love with the city. I highly recommend to anyone who hasn't been to go, it's such a great city.

To bring this back to the parent comment: The anthropology museum [1] in D.F is incredible both in depth and scale. It covers the history of the city and area so thoroughly. I had no idea about the extent to which civilization had persisted in Mesoamerica before I spent half a day wandering around this museum. It's such a fascinating history and it's available to see right there through the recovered artifacts and the current ruin sites both in D.F and just outside (such as Teotihuacan [2]).

Oh, and if you go stay here: http://theredtreehouse.com

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museo_Nacional_de_Antropolog%C3... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teotihuacan

Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by WildUtah on Monday October 13, 2014 @06:42PM (#8451080)
Agreed on Mexico City. It's wonderful.

Cortés arrived in Mexico with a few hundred men and allied with locals to overturn the Aztec empire, but natives were always the majority of his alliance. And natives have always been the majority of the ancestors of Mexicans, even today. The pre-Hispanic civilization persists in every aspect of life from street grids to artistic styles. There are still more Mexicans living on canals than Venetians.

I was bicycling through the mountains of Milpa Alta one day; Milpa Alta is inside the Federal District of central Mexico City but more rural by virtue of steep mountainsides rising straight up from dense valley development. I came to the town of Milpa Santa Anna where I rode to the charming central square. Narrow old streets are colorful and lively there with some cross streets passing each other on bridges due to the steep hillsides. There was a public notice board in the central plaza where all notices were posted -- ten miles from the denser parts of Mexico City -- in Nahuatl -- the original Aztec tongue -- as well as Spanish. Except there was one notice posted only in Nahuatl. I can't tell you what that one said because I don't speak the language, but it really makes you feel like a foreign traveller in the deep past when public notices are still written in Aztec.

Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by turar on Monday October 13, 2014 @10:28PM (#8451660)
>> This has a lot to do with why present-day Mexico, Peru, Bolivia, etc. have large indigenous communities relative to Canada and the US: there were higher populations there to begin with.

It's not just large relative to Canada and US, it's absolutely dominant. In Mexico, 88% of population is Native or mixed-Native. Compared to less than 2% in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Ameri...

Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by Spooky23 on Monday October 13, 2014 @08:11PM (#8451303)
Intermarriage was socially acceptable to the Spainards. They also needed a labor force for working the mines, so don't be too sympathetic towards them... They killed millions.

The populations of Indians in the US/Canada were smaller so the French/English pushed the natives out, while maintaining a buffer of undesirable poor Europeans on the frontier.

Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by SiVal on Monday October 13, 2014 @04:00PM (#8450289)
You claim that the US and Canada are synonymous with "Anglo-Saxon" colonies. How do you explain the place names in Silicon Valley: San Francisco, San Mateo, San Carlos, Palo Alto, Los Gatos, Los Altos, San Jose...?

How do you explain Canada's endless "dual language" bickering? Is that Anglo speakers vs. Saxon speakers?

The United States was formed long after most of the plagues that devastated the native North Americans, yet it was the US government that bought the vast Louisiana Purchase territory. From whom? And bought Alaska? From whom? These places had quite a low density of native populations long before they became "Anglo-Saxon".

Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by turar on Monday October 13, 2014 @10:25PM (#8451652)
California was part of Mexico until 1846. Quebec was part of New France until 1759. I'm not sure what your point is. Today, combined Native and mixed-Native population in the US is less than 2%. Compare that with Mexico's 88%. It just doesn't add up.
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by SiVal on Tuesday October 14, 2014 @05:16AM (#8452578)
Yet you claim, "Today, only in the US and Canada, i.e. Anglo-Saxon colonies...."

How could you not understand a point that you are restating? Today's US and Canada are obviously not just the "Anglo-Saxon colonies".

Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by turar on Tuesday October 14, 2014 @12:31PM (#8454203)
Ah, so you took offense with "today"? Okay, read it as "former Anglo-Saxon colonies". The larger point remains.
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by SiVal on Tuesday October 14, 2014 @04:45PM (#8455698)
"only in the US and Canada, i.e. Anglo-Saxon colonies...."

Unless I'm mistaken, you claim you are trying to make a point about North America, not the East Coast of North America, and you insist on referring to places such as the vast American Southwest, the Louisiana Territory, Quebec, and so on as, "Okay, read it as 'former Anglo-Saxon colonies'". You can't see anything wrong with your point?

Clearly, I have to try something else, so does your point about Anglo-Saxon colonies and native populations require us to characterize California and Quebec as "former Anglo-Saxon colonies" or not?

If it were me, I'd give up the fashionable notion that this is about nasty Anglo-Saxons and a phenomenon only seen in the US and Canada and take a closer look at North American former colonies like Massachusetts (English) and Quebec (French), and almost as large South American former colonies like Argentina (Spanish) and Brazil (Portuguese), where the native population is a tiny fraction of the overall population, and compare them to those countries in the middle that still have a majority native population, and ask yourself what the first group have in common with each other that differs from the latter group.

It isn't Anglo-Saxon-ness.

Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by Spooky23 on Monday October 13, 2014 @08:14PM (#8451310)
Louisiana was purchased from France... Whose claim to the land was tenuous at best. The genius of the purchase was that it kept Napoleon away.
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by rthomas6 on Monday October 13, 2014 @03:18PM (#8450088)
Oh, there's no doubt that we wiped out the Native Americans on purpose. Systematically. Over several hundred years. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But even in that effort, disease played a part through purposeful infection.
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by ende on Monday October 13, 2014 @10:41PM (#8451691)
You were there?
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by rthomas6 on Tuesday October 14, 2014 @10:48AM (#8453633)
No... but other people were, and those people wrote first-hand accounts of what happened. In history those are called "primary sources". That's how history is determined. And I don't know what else to call the depicted slaughter, the wars, and the forcible relocation to useless lands other than systematic eradication.
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by ende on Thursday October 16, 2014 @05:51PM (#8468016)
That wasn't a comment about your account of history but rather your involvement in it. To put another way, would someone who is half-native hald-european be half-victim half-responsible, or is it just ridiculous to attribute blame for periods of history through descent?
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by jghn on Monday October 13, 2014 @03:33PM (#8450154)
I took his comment to mean that it the annihilation of the natives was a much easier task due to the disease, not that it was simply the disease.
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by Symmetry on Monday October 13, 2014 @04:07PM (#8450336)
And south of the Mason-Dixon line endemic malaria caused even more devastation in the long run. Influenza was a huge killer but once you survived it you were more or less safe. Malaria didn't kill huge number directly, but made people unable to work bringing starvation.
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by qwerta on Monday October 13, 2014 @04:43PM (#8450546)
It goes both ways. For example Syphilis spread in Europe after 1495, most likely brought by Columbus from America.
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by nyolfen on Monday October 13, 2014 @07:18PM (#8451189)
syphilis didn't wipe out 80% of europeans however
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by qwerta on Monday October 13, 2014 @07:37PM (#8451228)
epidemics are very common in european history
Re:Life in the Americas Before Columbus (2002) by nyolfen on Wednesday October 15, 2014 @12:24AM (#8457156)
yes but nowhere near that scale