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Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by mkal_tsr on Thursday September 18, 2014 @12:48AM (#8333743)
Yet no comment from them about what being a "provider" under PRISM entails.

* "In addition, Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a “back door” in any of our products or services."

If Apple provides an interface to request user-data to law enforcement / NSA, that's not a back door in the product or the service.

* "We have also never allowed any government access to our servers. And we never will."

If they provide user-data after being served with a warrant (possibly through email or to their legal department), their servers were never accessed, yet the data was provided.

It's always interesting to read what is and isn't said. Word games, I swear.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by jwr on Thursday September 18, 2014 @03:14AM (#8334082)
I find it amusing that people are being outraged at Apple, instead of being outraged at their government. From outside the US, it looks like it became generally accepted that the NSA will spy on US citizens all it wants, unchecked, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Instead, all the rage is getting directed at companies that disclose the information to NSA.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by mkal_tsr on Thursday September 18, 2014 @03:39AM (#8334150)
Is this directed at me? I'm not outraged at Apple at all, I think they're trying to play the long game here. I'm just sick of the word games, deception, and legalese from anyone regarding privacy. It's hard enough fully understanding exactly how all the pieces fit together (technology, laws, politics, etc.) for people that are genuinely interested in this, let alone the average consumer. Pointing out loopholes in wording helps to start conversations about what is/isn't happening as well as what could happen/be-abused.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by jwr on Thursday September 18, 2014 @05:09AM (#8334343)
Well, I think whatever Apple says, you will find a "loophole" in the wording that supposedly allows them to do evil things. Try it: pretend you are Apple and just try writing a statement that you would consider acceptable and that you wouldn't call "word games, deception and legalese".

Myself, I think they did fairly well, certainly the best of any tech company out there today.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by mkal_tsr on Thursday September 18, 2014 @06:09AM (#8334464)
> Try it: pretend you are Apple and just try writing a statement that you would consider acceptable and that you wouldn't call "word games, deception and legalese".

Ok. "We're enabling custom encryption key management. You may now generate and use your own encryption keys. In addition to ensuring the device data is encrypted, nothing in your iCloud account can be recovered if you lose your key because it is all pre-encrypted before being sent to iCloud. Again, if you lose your key, there is no recovery possible. We'll also be opening up a new bug-bounty program specifically for identifying weaknesses and exploits in our baseband, firmware, and OS that could result in the leaking of your encryption keys and personal data. Here at Apple, we take your privacy serious."

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by efdee on Thursday September 18, 2014 @06:58AM (#8334590)
I don't see any promise there that they won't somehow store your encryption key in a place where they can access it. I see a huge line saying "we invite you to try and catch us and if so we will try to find another way that you haven't yet found out about". So I think you failed on your premise.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by schrodinger on Thursday September 18, 2014 @08:48AM (#8334888)
You'd still get "But they could just push an OS update that sends them the keys"
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by kabouseng on Thursday September 18, 2014 @07:57AM (#8334727)
Absolutely correct, no amount of wording will provide adequate proof. Thats why if you are providing a security product or product providing security features, open up the source code and provide a way to validate that that source is actually what is running on the hardware.

Until then I assume it is unsecure.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by Drakim on Thursday September 18, 2014 @03:28AM (#8334120)
Often it seems like the people want businesses to take up the fight for privacy, rather than the people themselves.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by enneff on Thursday September 18, 2014 @04:24AM (#8334247)
And why not? Businesses, through lobbying, essentially control the US government.

It's not unreasonable that American citizens might feel more empowered voting with their dollars than with ballot papers.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by ilobby on Thursday September 18, 2014 @11:53PM (#8338919)
It was about three $3.2 billion last year in 2013 from the federally registered lobbyists. The state level is probably equal to that. Some think the real numbers are closer to $9 billion at the federal level because PR and consulting don't have to be filed with the Senate clerk.

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by ilobby on Thursday September 18, 2014 @11:46PM (#8338900)
Excellent point. So do it. iLobby.co
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by happyscrappy on Thursday September 18, 2014 @07:04AM (#8334608)
People don't care about privacy or they wouldn't be using Android.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by seanhandley on Thursday September 18, 2014 @04:38AM (#8334272)
Explain to me how businesses aren't people ?
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by freehunter on Thursday September 18, 2014 @09:56AM (#8335199)
Business are made of people, but a business is not a person in and of itself. That's why we have the saying "design by committee", because a group of people doing something will not lead to the same result of one person doing something.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by allegory on Thursday September 18, 2014 @04:06AM (#8334200)
I think people are outraged at both.

With the companies in question, it's not hard to vote with your feet and complain. With the government, it's very difficult.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by ddebernardy on Thursday September 18, 2014 @04:34AM (#8334267)
You get the government you vote for.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by allegory on Thursday September 18, 2014 @06:12AM (#8334471)
No, that's not how it works. You get the most heavily marketed party that pissed the least number of people off in the last couple of years.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by uxp on Thursday September 18, 2014 @08:33AM (#8334842)
National elections have become such a farce anyways. A single senator or representative can change the political landscape, yet a single citizen cannot. I cannot vote for Senator Wyden, nor can I vote against Feinstein. Rubio is unfazed with my voting and McConnell couldn't care less about my opinions. Yet, these handful of senators have shaped the issues that I care about to be what they are today. The best I can do is not vote for Hatch, but his death from old age seems to be the looming reason for his departure from the senate.

When someone voted in by a single state can influence the entire country like that, it makes everyone feel powerless. I'd rather give my money to a company that has my interests in mind throughout the years in exchange for products and services than dump thousands of dollars into someone's campaign like a drunken bet at a Las Vegas casino every couple of years.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by adventured on Thursday September 18, 2014 @05:05AM (#8334331)
You get the government the majority of voters vote for.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by CamperBob2 on Thursday September 18, 2014 @05:28AM (#8334388)
You also get the one the majority didn't vote for, since it's more or less indistinguishable from the one they did vote for.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by mkal_tsr on Thursday September 18, 2014 @06:37AM (#8334540)
Minus that whole lobbying, "corps are people (only when convenient)", and gerrymandering thing, exactly!
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by ddebernardy on Thursday September 18, 2014 @01:22PM (#8336421)
I'd agree if US voters actually bothered to go voting, and participated in their own democracy instead of turning their brains off and watching TV. But seeing how they don't, the US really gets the government that the most active/noisy minory supports.

(The same is largely true in the EU, even though it's possibly more pronounced the US.)

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by snowwrestler on Thursday September 18, 2014 @01:20AM (#8333844)
Apple has directly addressed the PRISM diclosures, last year:

https://www.apple.com/apples-commitment-to-customer-privacy/

In addition the new section launched today includes a page on government information requests, including "National Security Orders from the U.S. government." One sentence summary: they provide data to the government when required to by law.

PRISM itself is a program that is structured as a request/response, and the requests are approved by the FISA court, so it would fit into Apple's language in that section.

The initial report of PRISM implied that the NSA and FBI had direct, unfettered access to providers' "central servers", but that has been since walked back a bit. The points of concern with PRISM are 1) poor oversight from the FISA court, 2) overly broad request criteria resulting in huge datasets collected, and 3) the lack of public oversight due to gag orders.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by davedx on Thursday September 18, 2014 @02:18AM (#8333969)
> The initial report of PRISM implied that the NSA and FBI had direct, unfettered access to providers' "central servers", but that has been since walked back a bit.

Really? I haven't been able to follow every report, as the Snowden leaks generated a lot of content over the past year. Can you give a source to where PRISM's central server access has been "walked back a bit"?

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by snowwrestler on Thursday September 18, 2014 @10:29AM (#8335363)
The Wikipedia page is up to date and contains a lot of links to external sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%2...

The press report that most directly addresses the issue is probably this one:

http://www.cnet.com/news/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-t...

Incidentally the author of that story is doing a startup now, visits HN, and actually has posted in this thread! Username is "declan."

Essentially, it seems there are a number of NSA programs that we can now distinguish from one another.

PRISM uses the FBI and FISA court orders to directly request records from hosted application providers like Google, Yahoo, Apple, etc.

But there are also other programs that claim to be authorized under the FISA law that target network infrastructure companies like Verizon and AT&T, apparently sucking up and storing huge amounts of raw traffic directly from network infrastructure. This would be the famous "secret room" at AT&T network building in California. These could suck up Apple traffic (or anyone else) but Apple would not be aware because it's at the network layer.

Then there is MUSCULAR, in which the NSA helped the British GCHQ hack into the internal networks of Google (without Google's knowledge) to suck data out of the unencrypted connections between Google servers.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by davedx on Tuesday September 23, 2014 @02:29AM (#8354264)
Thanks, that's a really great summary.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by nikcub on Thursday September 18, 2014 @10:12AM (#8335283)
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by declan on Thursday September 18, 2014 @01:00AM (#8333786)
>If they provide user-data after being served with a warrant their servers were never accessed, yet the data was provided.

Yes, that's true. But if you run an email service that's based in Cupertino, what do you do when served with a lawful search warrant or wiretap order? Say "no," and be found in contempt of court and have all your servers carted away by some men in black so they can find the file they're looking for?

There are a few ways around this. One is not to permanently store warrant-worthy user data (Snapchat, Wickr, etc.). Another is end-to-end encryption (original version of Hushmail), though key distribution and UX become problems. A third is to move your servers to Switzerland, though then you get served with process from the Swiss authorities instead of FBIDHSDEAetc.

Apple has taken none of these steps. Assume our hypothetical Cupertino-based email service has not either. What do you do when the Feds show up with a lawful order?

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by Yver on Thursday September 18, 2014 @01:06AM (#8333805)
> What do you do when the Feds show up with a lawful order?

I don't expect them to say no. That's why I don't expect them to imply that they would or suggest that they never have.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by fpgeek on Thursday September 18, 2014 @01:14AM (#8333831)
> A third is to move your servers to Switzerland, though then you get served with process from the Swiss authorities instead of FBIDHSDEAetc.

And, if you keep your headquarters in Cupertino, quite possibly from US authorities as well (see the currently in-progress Microsoft case about access to servers in Ireland).

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by mkal_tsr on Thursday September 18, 2014 @01:06AM (#8333807)
I go under the assumption that if I'm not the one generating and providing the encryption keys (and really, pre-encrypting the data), absolutely nothing is secure/encrypted. And in all honesty, if it touched the internet, it's already insecure to some extent.

It's been "fun" to read Jewel vs. NSA proceedings, press statements, and officials' statements about these issues because of the extent to which they play word games to technically not lie according to specific (re)definition of words.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by antimagic on Thursday September 18, 2014 @12:22PM (#8336061)
Why stop there? If you're not root, you're not secure either. For example, if someone else is root, they can do whatever they want with your locally generated keys, upto and including sending them to the NSA with a little bow on top.

Even if you are root it's no guarantee, thank you rootkits :/

As with all things security, sometimes it comes down to trust and legal protections.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by geekbeast on Thursday September 18, 2014 @03:25AM (#8334110)
Open source client libraries providing end-to-end encryption and zero knowledge search, would enable a functional e-mail system that operates without any server held keys.

You could still NSL a backdoor, but if the service is open source at least there's a chance of the code being audited.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by seanflyon on Thursday September 18, 2014 @03:36AM (#8334148)
End-to-end encryption will improve things but it is still only as secure as your key management. For email to be convenient you need an easy way to get you friend's public key and easy ways are hard to make secure.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by geekbeast on Thursday September 18, 2014 @04:16AM (#8334223)
Agreed.

Without a trust the only thing that comes close is an in person P2P pairing ceremony.

Key management might work in an enterprise setting with a central authority, but making sure your friend's public key isn't swapped with the government's is pretty hard if you don't trust the cloud provider, telecom, or intermediate infrastructure.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by baddox on Thursday September 18, 2014 @03:02AM (#8334063)
There's no reason the refusal to store warrant-worthy data or to use end-to-end encryption would prevent men in black from carting away all your servers. In fact, it might very well increase the likelihood of them doing so.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by NamTaf on Thursday September 18, 2014 @05:05AM (#8334332)
You're forgetting that for all the Snowden leaks have revealed, the info in the press about Prism is still classified. IANAL, but I would imagine Apple could get smacked quite a bit if it started talking about its cooperation (not necessarily voluntary cooperation, that is) with NSA initiatives like Prism.

I mean when the wikileaks cable dump came out, there was quite a bit of noise about how US government people should not visit the site because it would still constitute a breach of security even though it was in the public domain, and that they could lose their jobs for it. This is no different, really. The material is still classified whether it's spread all over the press or not, so discussing it with uncleared persons such as the public would (IANAL, again) I imagine be a breach of security.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by MCRed on Thursday September 18, 2014 @01:44AM (#8333902)
> If Apple provides an interface to request user-data to law enforcement / NSA, that's not a back door in the product or the service.

I consider that a back door.

>We have also never allowed any government access to our servers. And we never will

Makes it clear what he means in the first statement.

I've known Apple to engage in hyperbole to a significant degree, but never -- in nearly 40 years-- to lie publicly.

They haven't denied providing information under warrant. Basically, every US company is going to do that.

But that's on a case by case basis, not wholesale.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by mkal_tsr on Thursday September 18, 2014 @01:48AM (#8333909)
An interface to request data wouldn't be a back door, as that falls under the "request/response" model. "Here is our warrant for Person X by judge Y in district Z" != "sudo apple-get * /mount/nsa" The important distinction there is that each request is an individual request and can't be automated / done in bulk / wholesale.

I'm very interested to see how the device vs. account data-request ratio maintains/changes with the release and adoption of iOS 8.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by droopyEyelids on Thursday September 18, 2014 @12:53AM (#8333765)
I'd like to see a breakdown of exactly what they can provide with a device request and an account request.

I think that would be reasonable information to share, because it'd educate both law enforcement and the general public about what data is available from their devices.

Plus it'd settle the issue of word games- or at least bring it closer to being settled in my eyes. We can't get a good idea of what is going on with these 10k foot marketing pronouncements.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by antmldr on Thursday September 18, 2014 @01:26AM (#8333859)
http://images.apple.com/privacy/docs/legal-process-guideline...

Page 4 onwards provides a list of information they provide to law enforcement agencies. Probably prudent if you're an apple customer to simply assume all of this information is as good as public.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by joosters on Thursday September 18, 2014 @02:37AM (#8334018)
I. Extracting Data from Passcode Locked iOS Devices

...

For all devices running iOS 8.0 and later versions, Apple will no longer be performing iOS data extractions as the data sought will be encrypted and Apple will not possess the encryption key.

Interesting. What changed in iOS 8, I wonder?

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by arrrg on Thursday September 18, 2014 @03:18AM (#8334094)
Law enforcement access is not the same as public access. I think it is extremely important to make that distinction. And there is one.
Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by emsy on Thursday September 18, 2014 @01:34AM (#8333879)
There are interviews were Tim Cook states the range of warrant requests (he isn't allowed to tell the exact numbers): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmm5faI_mLo

Seemingly, they also have some sort of canary in place in case they get secret requests under the patriot act: http://boingboing.net/2013/11/05/apple-hides-a-patriot-act-b...

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by UVB-76 on Thursday September 18, 2014 @03:01AM (#8334058)
If you look at the transparency reports, only the report for the first half of 2013 includes that canary (specifically mentioning Section 215).

It was removed for the latter half of 2013, and this just-released first half of 2014 report.

Take that as you will.

Re:Apple – Privacy – Government Information Requests by rtpg on Thursday September 18, 2014 @02:33AM (#8334009)
I highly doubt the canary would be a valid defence.

By omitting the line you are, for most intents and purposes, saying that you received a request. Now, saying you received a request and saying specifically what request you received are different, but I imagine the gag order doesn't make that differentiation.

Gag order is not that you can't say a specific thing, it's that you can't communicate a specific piece of information. The canary is communicating something.

A court order can ask you to lie, so the "I can't lie to my customers" defence probably won't work.