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Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by ChuckMcM on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @04:31PM (#8326933)
I find it interesting that Boeing is constantly trying to get into every story that they made all their milestones on time. I think perhaps they are dealing with the fact that the CST-100 system looks like something from the 70's when compared to the Dragon V2.

Its clear to me that SpaceX is taking the bigger risk here, they have way more things that are untried but I am so hoping they make it to the finish. Boeing would develop a slightly better capability than Soyuz (7 astronauts vs 3) but SpaceX would deliver capability far in excess of that, 7 people landed where you want them on land or on sea.

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by tcheard on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @05:58PM (#8327333)
> I find it interesting that Boeing is constantly trying to get into every story that they made all their milestones on time.

The companies pretty much wrote their own milestones. Most of Boeing's milestones in the last part of the program were paperwork milestones vs SpaceX's milestones which involved actual testing.

The main ones SpaceX haven't completed yet, that they had as milestones for the last part of the program were pad abort test and in-flight abort test. Boeing are no where near doing those on the CST-100, SpaceX have them scheduled for November and January, respectively.

Just because they completed their milestones, doesn't mean they are ahead of SpaceX in total development. They are in fact far behind.

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by drzaiusapelord on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @04:46PM (#8327019)
>I think perhaps they are dealing with the fact that the CST-100 system looks like something from the 70's when compared to the Dragon V2.

They both look pretty plain to me. I mean, Musk can lay on some shiny metal here and there, but they're both soulless capsules. I really like the Dream Chaser; a 1/4th size STS that can be mounted on the tip of existing rockets is very tempting.

I think Boeing's marketing wants people to know that it won't have the Musk-like cult of personality, but it can deliver the goods, thus the talking points about hitting milestones.

I wish both of them the best of luck. This isn't a competition, its delivering LEO for NASA. I think people who see it as some kind of "my guy vs yours" are missing the point.

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by avenueevergreen on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @05:06PM (#8327119)
I don't think seeing them as soulless capsules is a very productive attitude. It's true that Dream Chaser's lifting body design looks sexy, but I don't think the goal of human spaceflight is to be sexy.

From a tech perspective, and keeping in mind that I can presume the goal of human spaceflight to be to push humanity further into the cosmos, I see one thing really exciting about Dragon 2 that CST-100 doesn't have--propulsive landing. A NASA Ames research team says that Dragon 2 thrown by Falcon Heavy could execute a fully propulsive EDL on Mars. This seems like interesting heritage to build, and shows that development of Dragon 2 could have implications on further spaceflight.

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by ansible on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @06:04PM (#8327361)
They both look pretty plain to me. I mean, Musk can lay on some shiny metal here and there, but they're both soulless capsules. I really like the Dream Chaser; a 1/4th size STS that can be mounted on the tip of existing rockets is very tempting.

Plain is good. Plain (in this context) is correlated with reliable.

Here's the thing with the STS. The lifting-body design spreads a critical system component (the reentry system) over a large area, necessarily on the outside of the craft.

A capsule with a more conventional ablative re-entry heat shield is more durable and reliable. It is also protected for most of the mission. It can be engineered with plenty of design margin (at minimal weight penalty), to deal with unexpected circumstances. That makes for a good design.

The TPS on the STS has partially failed several times [1], and once catastrophically.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STS-27#Tile_damage

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by rbanffy on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @06:49PM (#8327549)
> I really like the Dream Chaser; a 1/4th size STS that can be mounted on the tip of existing rockets is very tempting.

It's much heavier than a Dragon v2, meaning it carries less payload for the same launch cost, for more or less the same land-where-you-want capability. It's pretty, but pretty does not solve the problem.

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by JulianMorrison on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @09:31AM (#8329818)
IIRC it does have the advantage of simplicity in use (if not in construction) over the Dragon: it lands without fuel and without needing refuelling. Re-use could amount to wiping it down and kicking the tires, then winching it up onto a new booster.
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by legohead on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @06:24PM (#8327463)
Take a look at the insides. The CST-100 is extremely cramped for the astronauts. The Dragon 2 looks like luxury in comparison. If there are astronauts that get to ride in both modules, I'm pretty sure they are going to be pro Space-X far and above (assuming both perform normally).
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by ak217 on Thursday September 18, 2014 @12:42PM (#8336165)
The lifting body may look more inspiring, but despite what you say, the Dragon 2 has many key innovations that are aimed at what really matters: reducing the cost and increasing the safety of spaceflight. Shroudless launch, 3D printed main engines, integrated LES using the main engines, propulsive landing, full reusability. To draw an equivalence between it and other previous capsule designs that don't have those features is misleading.

Perhaps Dream Chaser was ready to do all those things. I wish it went forward as well. But the technologies in Dragon 2 will make a big difference.

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by mikeash on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @06:38AM (#8329374)
Look at capabilities, not looks. Dragon V2, if it lives up to its promise along with F9R, means dramatically reduced costs for launching people into space through almost complete reusability of the launch vehicle and capsule. Turnaround times on the order of days, launch costs in the single-digit millions, it would be huge. It's basically all of the empty promises of the Space Shuttle, but (it appears for the moment, at least) with the hardware to back it up.

CST-100 makes similar promises if it can be matched with a reusable launcher (perhaps F9R). I'm not sure if they're looking at similarly short turnaround times (probably not). But they're much less far along and it's hard to judge if they can deliver.

Dream Chaser also makes similar promises, again if it can be matched with a reusable launcher. What's the advantage of it over the others? As far as I can see, the only real advantage is less gee loading during reentry. In exchange, you add a lot of complication and weight (wings and wheels). It doesn't seem worth it at all.

Spaceplanes look cool, but what's the point? The goal should be robustness and cheapness, with reusability a necessity for enabling the latter. Vertical powered landing with a capsule looks like an excellent way to achieve this.

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by snogglethorpe on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @11:34PM (#8328435)
I'd guess that the obvious disparity between the two was an intentional move by NASA.

SpaceX is the cool, fast-moving, forward-thinking—but potentially more risky—alternative. Boeing is the boring, slow-moving, business-as-usual, military-industrial-complex alternative.

I suspect that privately they hope SpaceX succeeds, but they also want a backup plan that's more conventional, if less good in some sense.

[As to why Boeing's getting more money than SpaceX, I suppose because Boeing probably uses money much less efficiently... they need more to reach a similar point... >< ]

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by Patrick_Devine on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @12:09AM (#8328557)
Unfortunately Sierra Nevada ends up being the losers here. I'd have loved to have seen the Dream Chaser also win the competition, but my guess is NASA (or someone in Congress) felt that choosing SpaceX and SNC would have been too risky.
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by snogglethorpe on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @01:04AM (#8328684)
Yeah, and it sounds like they were under political pressure to choose just one winner, so even the choice they made was a bit of a push for them.

If they had chosen just one winner, I presume that, given the inherently risk-averse nature of NASA and the political realities of lobbying and pork-spreading, it would have been Boeing. The same factors almost certainly meant that Boeing would have to be one of the two winners under the current plan.

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by Ankaios on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @11:40PM (#8328452)
The SpaceX design is probably the less risky one. They are already flying a version of Dragon which is very similar, and will have many more flights of it by the time of the first crewed flights. The differences between the crew and cargo versions are important, but the CST-100, as a basically clean-sheet design, will have far less relevant flight heritage than Dragon.
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by rsynnott on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @08:36AM (#8329638)
SpaceX is severely behind schedule on actually delivering and launching Falcon 9s, however. This may well get sorted out, but given its performance to date I'm not surprised that NASA wants another option.
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by FranOntanaya on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @04:05AM (#8329000)
I'd rather have parachutes than airbags as secondary landing method when falling down from orbit, that's for sure.
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by anigbrowl on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @04:55PM (#8327066)
That's a perfectly reasonable sort of thing to promote. It might equally be that they don't want people to think of production delays that affected the launch of the 787 or F-35 (the latter being nothing to do with Boeing, but aerospace and space are strongly linked in the public's mind and the F-35 project is famous for not meeting deadlines).
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by Patrick_Devine on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @12:15AM (#8328573)
I sometimes wonder if anyone regrets having awarded the JSF contract to Lockheed Martin instead of picking the X-32. I honestly think part of the decision with going with the X-35 was because it looked a hell of a lot cooler than the X-32.
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by anigbrowl on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @12:22AM (#8328594)
I'm sure many people regret it, although I don't know enough to know what the 'right' decision was. For all the F-35's faults (notably its recurring failure to get off the ground...) at least it doesn't look like a giant frog: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32#mediaviewer/File:Bo...
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by legohead on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @06:27PM (#8327477)
Definitely SpaceX has the better machine, but at least the CST-100 is reusable and can make ground landings (via pillows). There is a 10-use limit for each, due to the thermal shields; the Dragon2 requires a refit and from what I can tell the CST-100 is just replaced with a new one.

It will be an interesting competition :)

Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by Ankaios on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @11:32PM (#8328430)
Both will make ground landings.
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by bane on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @05:35PM (#8327245)
I think having both systems in parallel development is really critical though. One conservative, one leading edge and riskier. Putting everything into one program just doesn't seem to pan out in the long run and you end up with capability gaps, or relying on untrusty secondary supply sources.

I'm very happy with this announcement.

[deleted]
Re:Boeing-SpaceX Team Split Space Taxi Award by _kst_ on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @04:57PM (#8327081)
The Saturn V was actually from the 60s.