News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Email will last forever by ChuckMcM on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @01:01PM (#8258758)
I find it interesting to contrast 'forever' with another technology that will last forever 'vinyl records'. I expect there will always be point to point, store and forward communication channels, but those channels have existed for millenia, from travelers who stacked rocks to tell those who came after where the trail was, to people who send compromising photos of themselves across cellular networks. So if we set aside the tautology for a moment, communication channels get morphed into a solution for a particular need, regardless of how well they service that need, and when there is a particularly wide disparity between need and implementation, there is an opportunity to create a better channel.

My current favorite example is Trello as a way of communicating activity status from many to many on many projects. Something email does poorly (but has been used for in the past) and Trello does brilliantly.

But lets look at the points one by one.

#1 everyone has an email address -- sure today they do, and 25 years ago nobody did, and 25 years from now its possible everyone will have a "fooservice" address.

#2 email is flexible -- see my point above, flexing is not the same as serving.

#3 other stuff is great for professional communication but we still use email. -- and before that inter-office memos.

I get that these guys (Front) are invested in email sticking around but I would note that putting an adapter layer in front of it is no more, nor less, efficient than putting an adapter layer in front of TCP/IP or smoke signals or a 45 year old text file transfer protocol, whether or not "email" in the form of SMTP will survive should be irrelevant to Front, the question should be will the need for their service survive.

Re:Email will last forever by TeMPOraL on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @01:58PM (#8259087)
My opinionated 2¢ on why e-mails will live while many an "e-mail killer" dies mourned by no one.

E-mail is just better way of doing snail-mail, a technology that we had since we first invented writing. One could say that our whole civilization is built on such communication, as one could not conduct business, make a war or govern a country without mail. E-mails is just the same, only faster, and it shares all the benefits with the snail-mail medium. Interestingly, many of those benefits are also shared by... phone.

Why snail-mail, e-mail and phone calls do better than others and will outlast random fads is visible if you look at the structure of the medium. The main features those three forms have that various "e-mail killers" don't are:

- ubiquitous - you can reach anyone...

- distributed and federated - ...anywhere, without caring about whether they subscribe to the same service as you.

The last thing is important. When I send you a snail-mail, I don't know or care how the post office works in your country. When I send you an e-mail, I likely don't know (and again, I don't care) if you pay for your mail server and to whom. When I call you, again, I don't know or care who provides you cellular service. I don't even know what kind of device you use to receive that call.

No single entity owns snail mail, e-mail or the phone network.

On the other hand, with Facebook Messenger you can talk only to Facebook users on Facebook platform. With Asana, I can only talk to other Asana users.

The reasons those services die quickly (when was the last time you ICQd someone? MSNd? or <insert your national IM equivalent that no one uses nowdays anyway>'d?), and the reasons I STRONGLY WISH THEM TO DIE A QUICK DEATH for are greed and hubris. I go to Asana web-page (I don't mean to single them out, apply this to any other similar service) and I can see that idea, "we will replace e-mail, everyone will use our service and we will rule over in-company communication!", floating in the air. No, this will not happen. There will always be people who won't use your service because they don't like your UI or like a competitor more. But what you're trying to do is to throw away freedom of collaboration and interoperability to earn a quick buck. This is damaging to communications, damaging to society, damaging to humanity, and fortunately will disappear quickly into oblivion, like countless other similar startups.

Want to create an "e-mail killer"? Apply some humility. Accept that you will not be The One Gateway to Human Communication; it would be bad for everyone (yourself included) to become one. Just aim for a federated protocol, awesome UI and play nice with others. Sure, success will not be yours only; many others will profit in the same space as you. But embrace that. Wanting to keep everything for yourself is just greed.

Re:Email will last forever by ufmace on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @03:06PM (#8259480)
I'd add one more thing to ubiquitous, distributed, and federated, and that's free-form.

Quite a few of these email replacement services seem to add a bunch of stuff specific to some particular use-case. It might make it nicer for that particular use-case, but as soon as you need to do something outside of what's anticipated, it grinds to a halt. That means that any organization that uses something like that ends up using 3 or 4 of them, in addition to email. At that point, it's easier to just use email for everything.

Re:Email will last forever by TeMPOraL on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @03:16PM (#8259521)
> free-form

Yes! A thousand times yes!

Being free-form is also extremely important. I think that the best way to add another "stuff specific to some particular use-case" is just to add additional layers of UI over current form.

Look at how HTML mail is implemented - it's just using underlying text protocol. Ditto for images and other attachments.

I don't see any reason for people not to agree on Markdown formatting, folding Org-mode style headings, rendering [ ] as checkbox that will send a special "I'm ticked" e-mail as a reply when clicked (didn't GitHub start to do something similar with checkhoxes in readme files recently?), etc. Just keep the underlying format simple and gracefully degrading to plain-text for clients who don't support your new feature.

Re:Email will last forever by danielweber on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @02:16PM (#8259192)
I like to say "Email: it's good enough."

Spam is horrible, but filtering seems to work well enough these days. (Which makes me wonder why people are still spamming, but that's a separate post about game theory.)

Re:Email will last forever by Yardlink on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @09:37PM (#8261128)
Filtering doesn't work well enough at all. The fact that you can't be sure if your email was received is a problem. Many companies have over-aggressive spam filters and the recipients sometimes never even see the emails in their spam box - they're either bounced or black-holed. Often this is done by blacklisting IP addresses. When that IP happens to be the mail server of a service provider with many customers, when one of them sends spam, all of them get their emails blocked.

Unreliable delivery is perhaps on of the biggest problems with email. Largely due to faulty spam filtering.

Re:Email will last forever by hobarrera on Sunday September 07, 2014 @06:02PM (#8282574)
Actually, [spamd](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spamd) configured to [blacklist-only](http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi/OpenBSD-current/man8/...) works quite awesomely. I reduced my spam volume from several dozens a day to no more than a pair a week. I haven't had any loss in legitimate email, or anyone complaining about inapropiate bounces.

I'm actually surprised, since I actually expected more spam to get through.

Re:Email will last forever by spiritplumber on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @06:41PM (#8260589)
There's also the fact that the email format (something that is specifically not instant or near-instant, is primarily text, and works well in limited bandwidth situations) is well suited to interplanetary messages. I hope we will have that "problem" soon!
Re:Email will last forever by userbinator on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @09:08PM (#8261056)
I agree with your reasons, but it's interesting to consider that realtime IM is one area that, while there exists a standard, simple, and scalable protocol that's been around for a long time - IRC - it's nowhere near as popular as the proprietary alternatives that followed. IRC usage is declining, and of the people I know, the majority have never heard of it. Yet almost everyone knows about email, AIM, MSN Messenger, and now Skype. What lead to this huge difference? Is it just the triumph of marketing client software, or is there something else?
Re:Email will last forever by TeMPOraL on Wednesday September 03, 2014 @05:25AM (#8262157)
There's IM the one-to-one communication, and there's IM the multi-user chat. Those are two different concepts, they have their own mechanics of working and are treated differently by society.

But since you brought it up, let's talk about IRC. I'm betting its lack of widespread success is because of the general UX combined with some historical mishaps.

There are things you need to think about when IRCing, like:

  - servers
  - channel discovery
  - NickServ, ChanServ
  - channel modes
that all boil down to a. thinking, b. learning, and c. typing magic incantation into a command prompt. It all gives off this complicated, "techie" vibe.

Remember that the general population can't use a computer [0]. That level of involvement is already too much for people to start using it without a strong reason to do so.

I remember when I started IRCing for the first time. There was another solution, that captured much more users - the web chats. Those ugly, scammy looking Java applets embedded on news portals. They solved all the above problems, i.e. you didn't care about "servers" or "connecting", all channels ("rooms", they were called) were listed on a website and there were no magic modes or something, just users, administrators and kicking (and you as an user had only to grok what "being kicked/banned" means).

And of course you could post rainbows and cat gifs and animated faces made by a crazy artist on drugs.

Chats ultimately mostly died, having gained the (deserved) reputation of scammy and ugly places. Or maybe because society still thinks that talking with random strangers on the Internet is something weird and/or dangerous, I don't know.

Anyway, back to the topic of technological obstacles. At my local Hackerspace, every now and then we invite people to our IRC channel, and sometimes those people are not exactly of computer-competent type. A good way to do this is to point a person to a IRC web frame, that is pre-configured with server and channel names. From his point of view, it's just like entering that old-school chat, except that it looks less crappy. After that person hangs out a bit with us and likes the place, we teach him how to install and configure a best-suited IRC client.

If the IRC is ever to reach popularity again, I think someone needs to build a, pardon the startupy meme, GMail of IRC. That is, an UI that looks good, hides complexity from you. An UI that lets you click through everything, and explains things like "+v", "@", "-c" or "NickServ" in human-readable terms. With icons and colors and simple sentences.

Then there's the marketing angle, but I bet you, if Google ever built an IRC client for massess, we'd see a great resurgence of this protocol

[0] - http://coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-comput...

Re:Email will last forever by quoiquoi on Wednesday September 03, 2014 @01:35PM (#8264226)
Relay.js is a user friendly IRC client, see http://relayjs.jit.su/ for a demo. Converse.js (https://conversejs.org/) is an XMPP web client that supports XMPP conference rooms. So I'd say we already have good, nice-looking clients and there's room for improving integration on a single service to reach for the masses.
Re:Email will last forever by TeMPOraL on Wednesday September 03, 2014 @02:24PM (#8264469)
I've never heard of those tools before, thanks.

Unfortunately, Relay.js seems to not support colors in IRC, i.e. the "^C3i'm green^C" mIRC encoding. But it looks sweet though, and if one could just skip the "type the server and channel name" (i.e. embed on a community website), it would pretty much mimic the chat experience, only better :).

Anyway, so even if we have examples of pretty, somewhat simple and good enough XMPP/IRC clients, the next step is to get them to the world at large. That pretty much leaves marketing to focus on.

EDIT:

Somebody should bundle a pre-configured IRC server and a webserver hosting Relay.js into a Docker/Sandstorm (https://sandstorm.io/) container set and give it/sell it to companies as "awesome internal collaboration facilitator that improves communication and helps empower the teams to build products for the next generation of the web", or sth.

Re:Email will last forever by hobarrera on Sunday September 07, 2014 @06:04PM (#8282581)
IRC is for multi-user on-topic chats (eg: support, help channels, or specific topics, etc), while XMPP is more for personal IM. Plus, XMPP is open, standard, and decentralized.
Re:Email will last forever by afterburner on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @02:25PM (#8259246)
I assume the only reason people boldly claim they will kill email is so they can get VCs excited about their disrupt strategy. It's always about taking out an entire existing industry or system (see Uber).
Re:Email will last forever by TeMPOraL on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @02:36PM (#8259320)
I think that Maciej Cegłowski got it right in his talk [0] with the concept of investor storytime.

To quote:

"Recall that advertising is when someone pays you to tell your users they'll be happy if they buy a product or service.

Yahoo is an example of a company that runs on advertising. Gawker is a company that runs on advertising.

Investor storytime is when someone pays you to tell them how rich they'll get when you finally put ads on your site.

Pinterest is a site that runs on investor storytime. Most startups run on investor storytime.

Investor storytime is not exactly advertising, but it is related to advertising. Think of it as an advertising future, or perhaps the world's most targeted ad.

Both business models involve persuasion. In one of them, you're asking millions of listeners to hand over a little bit of money. In the other, you're persuading one or two listeners to hand over millions of money."

Most startups indeed do run on investor-storytime.

[0] - http://idlewords.com/bt14.htm

Re:Email will last forever by dredmorbius on Thursday September 04, 2014 @05:51AM (#8267355)
I've re-read that a few times (and created my own local copy with some simplified and fixed HTML -- it's missing a section heading and has a slew of un-closed anchors). My opinion of it continues to climb. It's well up my list as one of the ten best recently written essays I've read this year. Maciej posts here as "idlewords".

"Investor storytime" is a pretty good insight as well.

Re:Email will last forever by aianus on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @10:41PM (#8261284)
There are a lot of people for whom I have no email address, but whom I can reach at a moment's notice on Facebook. The problem with email is there is no directory, whereas on Facebook it's easy to search for "Friends of Joe named July" or what have you and get in touch with them.
Re:Email will last forever by EntiPag on Wednesday September 03, 2014 @07:14AM (#8262407)
> The problem with email is there is no directory

That's like saying that the problem with home addresses is that there is no directory.

Well, that's why you ask the people you wish to interact with the contacts he prefers. Business cards, writing you a quick email, phoning them,... You know, stuff that works for centuries.

What doesn't work at all is spreading your info for anyone to see and having to spend the good part of a day to fend off cold callers.

Re:Email will last forever by aianus on Wednesday September 03, 2014 @07:46AM (#8262489)
How do I ask them how they prefer to be contacted if I can't contact them? Imagine an old friend or acquaintance or someone you briefly met at a party. A Facebook friend request is hardly intrusive or difficult to ignore.
Re:Email will last forever by dredmorbius on Thursday September 04, 2014 @05:49AM (#8267351)
FOAF. If you can't reach someone directly, find someone who might be able to. Through their work, friends, organizations, etc. Much of that is fairly easy to work out.

It's how people used to get by. It's called legwork.

Re:Email will last forever by hobarrera on Sunday September 07, 2014 @06:09PM (#8282606)
Business cards? Writing down their address? Smartphones? Bluetooth? Etc.
Re:Email will last forever by infogulch on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @07:16PM (#8260721)
"Want to create an 'e-mail killer'? Apply some humility. Accept that you will not be The One Gateway to Human Communication" - Saving this quote.
Re:Email will last forever by Spooky23 on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @01:26PM (#8258904)
I agree with the author's premise.

Email is the ultimate "killer app" you can digitally deliver anything to anyone via email, and many folks use it for all sorts of different processes and purposes. Solutions that claim to displace email don't really displace email -- they displace common use cases that were handled ad hoc using email as a lowest common denominator. Most of these use cases cry out for a more structured solution.

For example, There are 1,000 services that displace emailing pictures to each other. There is probably an order of magnitude more services for managing tasks, approving things, exchanging quick exchanges, or performing any number of other tasks.

But at the end of the day, for the core function of email -- unstructured written communication, email is the king.

Re:Email will last forever by TeMPOraL on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @02:45PM (#8259367)
Your summary makes me think that the reasons for which huge number of people uses Excel as a database at work are very similar. There is such a thing as not enough flexibility, too much structure.
Re:Email will last forever by cloakandswagger on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @05:20PM (#8260225)
Vinyl records are bulky, expensive to produce and fragile.

Now, what are the problems with e-mail that it's inevitable successor will fix other than, "it's old" ?

Re:Email will last forever by EntiPag on Wednesday September 03, 2014 @07:17AM (#8262416)
This.

Those who complain about email tend to focus on arguing for solutions to problems that don't exist.

Re:Email will last forever by ejr on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @01:21PM (#8258861)
Vinyl was physical. As were cassettes, envelopes, postcards etc.

Email has one thing going for it that other platforms similarly didn't offer : It's the first personalised, and therefore recognisable, addressing system for an intangible communications platform that's still largely open (Ex: Unlike twitter et al. which has severely limited means of communication and, more importantly, what I can communicate).

I submit that we don't have an equivalent that's evenly matched and so no basis yet to compare it to. That's not to say there won't be one in the future, but I don't see anything close to matching it today or on the horizon.

Re:Email will last forever by andruby on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @03:04PM (#8259463)
It would be interesting to see an alternative to Twitter that is as open as email is. eg: A microblogging system that is built on open standards in a distributed and federated way. Where no-one owns the platform and protocols.

In the beginning of the internet a bunch of open system emerged: Email, IRC, DNS, ... Nowadays it's mostly businesses that launch proprietary solutions to make $$$. What has changed since those early days?

Re:Email will last forever by spindritf on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @03:42PM (#8259672)
First, money showed up on the Internet. Second, if you don't stand to make a ton of it, you can keep using email, IRC, DNS... No need to launch something else.

Although it's not like new IRC daemons are not written, or new irc networks are not started. It's not dead, it's slowly evolving.

Re:Email will last forever by quoiquoi on Wednesday September 03, 2014 @01:58PM (#8264345)
There are tons of open source alternatives based on standard protocols:

* https://jappix.com/ Jappix (XMPP)

* http://gnu.io/social/ GNU social (statusnet/pump)

* http://twister.net.co/ Twister (p2p microblogging)

* http://redmatrix.me/&JS=1 Red Matrix

The thing is: noone uses them.

Re:Email will last forever by icebraining on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @06:32PM (#8260562)
It would be interesting to see an alternative to Twitter that is as open as email is. eg: A microblogging system that is built on open standards in a distributed and federated way. Where no-one owns the platform and protocols.

There has been for years, it's called StatusNet (now GNU Social, apparently) and it's based on the open OStatus protocol. I had my own server federating with the reference instance (Laconi.ca), on which I followed a few users, like Tim Berners-Lee (who mostly cross-posted from Twitter).

Re:Email will last forever by boomzilla on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @01:26PM (#8258900)
I would agree that emails are not suitable for some use cases. Many to many updates on many projects, as you pointed out, is one that email is not a suitable medium. However, I don't see that particular use case as significant by the normal Internet users, rather an enterprise problem. The fact that emails have used for that just shows its robustness and popularity (hey it's good enough and all the people I need to connect with have it, so why not just using it?)

I don't think your analogy with vinyl records app as emails are actually the electronic version of the communication method human have been using for hundreds (if not thousands) of years: mails. People know exactly how to use email and what exactly do they expect from emails: - to send an email, you need an address - to receive emails, you need a mail box - once you hit send, you don't have control on the emails anymore, some thing (or post office workers) have control of it - you don't expect to get a reply right away, that lowers your expectation of an instant reply - a lot of emails are replies, which means there is a strong context which is what was said in the previous emails

There are many other good things with email such as the openness, federated and robustness nature of the underlying technologies. However, just from the end users perspectives, it matches perfectly with a communication model that most humans have used and understood for many years, and one that doesn't go away very soon.

Re:Email will last forever by XorNot on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @01:58PM (#8259085)
Many-to-Many isn't really bad for email. It depends on having servers which intelligently handle the duplication.

Which today, most servers do - they'll hardlink identical mails in mailboxes they control, and fan out those which need to be fanned out.

Email in that sort of medium is just visibly doing the grunt work you need to do for that type of thing over multiple distributed servers. Its no real accident that the Git distributed cloning model pretty closely mirrors this, since it was developed to replace emailing tarballs around for kernel developers.

Re:Email will last forever by djyaz1200 on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @04:24PM (#8259929)
As a former Pro DJ that now leads a Unified Communications Startup I find your comparison especially entertaining... and accurate. Vinyl records are still around now although they are more of a novelty item (no one is making real money on them). What has persisted is the analog user interface (especially around DJ'ing). While Email may persist in the future all your contacts and all your communications will be all together in one place. It is ABSURD that when we lose/misplace our physical phones we often simultaneously lose contacts and the ability to make/receive calls & SMS. It is also ridiculous that we can't all have a simple threaded chat log of our communications with all our friends/contacts regardless of if they were calls/SMS/Email etc. Different messaging channels are like different music genre's, many people used to think genre's like rock and hip hop were totally separate because the companies that marketed them worked hard to reinforce this distinction. As tools like the iPod gave the user more choice in how to organize and experience their music they blurred the lines between these genre's. The same thing will happen in messaging. People don't care whether it's a Twitter Message, Email, SMS or call. They just see it as all as communication and no one platform will win the day, it will be a mashup of all of them.
Re:Email will last forever by Wallaby on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @02:04PM (#8259120)
The seemingly forever existence of email might be due to the fact that writing an email is the same act as writing a letter. No matter how much technology we have, people will never stop writing letters. The human biological machine chooses the tools that is most familiar and the path of least resistance to achieve its goal. By evolution, we are machines that are designed to be somewhat efficient in the process of achieving our goals. Find the simplest thing that works and use it to get the job done.
Re:Email will last forever by mathattack on Wednesday September 03, 2014 @02:00AM (#8261693)
Good points. And I would also observe that email's share of electronic communication is going down with the rise of Facebook and other messaging services.
Re:Email will last forever by soneca on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @01:07PM (#8258786)
About #1, I don't have the data, but I would bet that there are more people with a SMS address (aka phone number) than with an email address.
Re:Email will last forever by ChuckMcM on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @01:28PM (#8258913)
True, and the cellular wave has made many phone numbers one-to-one rather than one-to-household. But for long form communication, SMS is rather painful, but it would be interesting to see something like Front built on top of it.
Re:Email will last forever by alan_cx on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @01:13PM (#8258813)
Not disagreeing, but a number of people have many email addresses. No idea how that stacks up with people with SMS though.
Re:Email will last forever by soneca on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @01:15PM (#8258818)
if anything, that just make SMS a more reliable way to reach someone.
Re:Email will last forever by lazylizard on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @02:17PM (#8259196)
i change my phone number more often than my email address, though..
Re:Email will last forever by wlesieutre on Tuesday September 02, 2014 @03:01PM (#8259446)
Why's that? At least within the US I can easily port a number between providers. But if I want to stop using Gmail and switch to Yahoo, I'm screwed. All of my accounts use the gmail address for my login, and most have no visible mechanism for changing it.

I don't change my phone number because it's easy to keep it. I don't change my email because the address is tied to a specific provider and getting everyone to switch to using my new one may be impossible.

Re:Email will last forever by lazylizard on Wednesday September 03, 2014 @02:04PM (#8264384)
gmail and yahoo have not shut down, so i've had no reason to stop receiving mail from those accounts. if i so desire, i can keep renewing a .com domain almost indefinitely for a pittance, and run my own mail for the domain. on the other hand, every 1-2 years when my mobile phone and/or internet connection contract runs out, i reconsider my phone plans. free phone number portability is relatively new thing compared to how old gmail,yahoo mail and hotmail(or running your own mailserver) are.