A person like this - and his viewpoint is not alien or even radical in America - sees the USA as a nearly sole force of good, the home of the free and enlightened. Logically, someone like that would not wish to place limits on the military capabilities of the USA, as he still sees the world in a confrontational light.
Put simply, a large part of the American public sees the world in a confrontational way and doesn't wish to reign the military capability of their government.
Under the ideas of capitalism, gun rights and the constitution, such Americans feel they are serving an enlightened, balanced mechanism, and they want it to go on.
TL;DR Americans want freedom from you; they take the freedom from their government for granted.
Now ask yourself - do you agree with the decisions of these non-religious and well educated people? Yes, it started with Bush and Obama largely pulled them out. But Obama has failed in bringing order and instituting a functional society. Whether that country is even culturally capable of that after the trauma they've been through is debatable. But that's where we're at.
Why did nearly 4500 soldiers die in Iraq? To provide cheap fuel and block China? Yes. But I'll leave the mathematics of the total estimated amount of oil in the ground and preventing China from getting it to someone else.
As ISIS has demonstrated though, we're not even competent at maintaining an imperialist vassal state.
Seems like a lot of money for what's in the ground.
So I definitely don't take this issue as a simplistic one.
However, more to your point:
1. The "American Establishment" is part of the problem, not of the solution. It's a classic case showing failures of checks and balances and of a shady power grab in the executive branch. The support of NSA activities is not a partisan affair.
2. In the Snowden case, a significant part of the media chose to label his actions as treason. Some did so directly, and others through adopting the official White House line. It was even worse with Manning.
3. The constitution, free market and gun rights lend America the notion of the "land of the free". That resonates across a significant part of the American public, and that's certainly a common perception (not necessarily a hawkish one). Freedom is a concept that's rooted deeply in the American mind. It's easy for an ordinary citizen to assume that a country placing so much emphasis on freedom would act in good faith to uphold it.
If you survey Americans about "what is the most free country of the world", they would say USA. They wouldn't believe you if you told them the USA has more monitoring measures to track its own citizens in place than any other country in the world, North Korea, China and Russia included.
So while my post was a bit one dimensional, so I say is the perception among the American public, and this good faith the public has in the country has given each administration a blank check to do as they please.
I'm seriously at a loss as to what to do about this problem.
Money is the language of power in American politics. If we want change, we need well-funded organizations that understand how to wield influence in Washington. I donate to the EFF and the ACLU.
Technology businesses also have money and know how to lobby. In fact, I think that's our strongest leverage point. Stop using the services of companies that work with the NSA or have architectures that enable surveillance. Tell them why you're doing it. I have been slowly divesting myself of known PRISM-collaborators including Google, Apple, Skype and Facebook (the ones I used). I deleted my Facebook account. I moved my email to Fastmail.fm. I started using startpage.com. I maximized the opt-out in my Google account. I installed CyanogenMod. This will be my last Apple laptop. I stopped using Dropbox and switched to ownCloud. There is still further to go. There are services where I haven't found viable open/private/secure alternatives (maps, video chat, youtube is ubiquitous). I got SSL certificates (free) for my site and set up a Tor hidden service.
I started using and supporting security and privacy oriented technologies. I spun up a Tor relay on my VPS to donate the unused bandwidth to the Tor network. I started routing my email and chat connections through Tor. I started using TextSecure and OTR. (Sadly, almost nobody I know use them.)
Now we have a much more subtle form of unconstitutional behavior. Like Bush before him, Obama thinks it's his "#1 job is to protect America." He forgot that he swore an oath making it his #1 job to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution."
Better technology will provide us real privacy, an informed society, and eventually the truly free countries all humans deserve.
How do we know they don't still?
> The CIA used to frequently replace foreign leaders and > even pulled that trick on us one time.
It will be really interesting in a couple decades if we ever get to see a glimpse of what has been happening behind the scenes in Ukraine and Venezuela, not to mention throughout the Middle East.
I just feel sorry for all the people who are having to endure such violence. I can't even imagine the horror.
"Trust us, everything is fixed now. No, we can't go into detail for national security reasons."
There's no way to hold above-the-law institutions to the same standards as the public, by definition. Curb the NSA's budget and they turn to the black budget. Restrict them legally, and they find ways around it.
The only way to win is through ubiquitous deployment of anonymizing technologies that take the power away from corrupt, centralized institutions permanently.
Another thing you can do is find out who of your friends is or has ever worked at the NSA, and refuse to communicate with them. Refuse to give them jobs. Refuse to sell them products and services. Shun them, stomp them, and starve them out!
DOX the NSA.
Let them feel America's outrage for real, and in public. Let's embarrass these asshats, and make their lives a living Hell. Treat them like dirt until they wish they were in Russia with Snowden.
Think about it: what do people do when they go to work on Mondays? Are they thinking and worrying about their eroding freedoms and devising of ways they can stop zealots like the NSA? No. They are planning for the weekend, when they can hang out with their friends and family, go on a short trip, play video games, and so on. They are thinking about saving some money so they can buy that gadget/car/house they wanted. They are worrying about the problems their kid has been having at school. They are stressing about what happens if they lose their job. And so on.
This is the root of the problem: people are so far removed from political issues, so distracted with their own problems and priorities, that they don't even know the names of their own politicians, much less have the cognitive capacity to recognize and critically analyze what is going on their country beyond what the media feeds them. And when they finally get home after working for eight, ten, twelve or more hours everyday, their brains are so fried they can't even think straight.
And you want these people to put everything aside and overthrow the NSA?
Americans tend to see things through party politics and identity anyway - and as such, you'll see a much bigger uproar over things like Obamacare and gun legislation after Newtown than you likely ever will over this, because this is such a new phenomenon that the party controllers are only now coming up with ways to either take credit or lay blame. Most Americans don't care about this, at worse it's a drama that plays out now and then on the news, and a minor inconvenience when they fly. It's a nonevent.
And there have been protests, and hearings, and what have you - but if what you're expecting is violence in the streets, if you're expecting a revolution like Syria - that's not going to happen.
No, absolutely not, violence would only set this issue back (imagine if the NSA now had a "valid" reason to target people, for inciting violence).
>Most Americans are not aware of their freedoms having been eroded in any meaningful way.
People need to see that their freedoms have been eroded which is one of the major issues, which is why their needs to be peaceful assembly and people making noise so that the average American fully understands the extent of the NSA's breach of privacy and civil liberties.
> that they will be rounded up by a government death squad because looking at Boing Boing pushed their XKeyScore rating past the red line.
Sure people aren't being rounded up by a government death squad, but tracking peoples every movements via phone and every single detail on their online personas is an incredible breach of privacy and civil liberties. It's only a matter of time until it escalates and you have to remove a weed before it takes hold in your garden, while it's still small enough to manage.
>Most Americans don't care about this
Then it needs to become an issue that Americans care about by the people who do understand how terrible the actions of the NSA are (in this case, most HN readers)
I've argued with people about that. They typically say they have nothing to hide so they couldn't care less that the government was watching them. And then there are people inside programming circles who say this is just an inevitable part of the information age, and all governments do it, and we should simply learn to live with it.
On the other hand, there's an old man at my gym who on more than one occasion has told me that Obama and the Democrats are going to lead the US into some kind of Stalinist new world order (just wait and see.) This isn't even on many people's radar yet.
>Then it needs to become an issue that Americans care about by the people who do understand how terrible the actions of the NSA are (in this case, most HN readers)
I agree with you entirely. It's a good fight to fight but.. I think it's going to take time before it stops becoming a 'fringe' issue for most Americans.
It's certainly a valid musing, but its scope is far broader than you were letting on. (At least, that was how I read it.)
The only reason it's even a huge deal is because of the 4th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. In countries without a similar constitutional guarantee your spy agencies probably aren't even breaking the law. They're probably watching everything you do with total impunity.
>They're probably watching everything you do with total impunity.
I'd rather ere on the side of rationality here and without any evidence to the contrary I'm going to doubt any systems exist that are as large and thorough as the NSA's in my own country.
For most Americans it's a day of barbecues, fireworks, and beer without much (if any) thought or celebration of freedom and liberty.
"Freedom" and "liberty" seem to be more like buzzwords used on the 4th of July than they are concepts pondered and/or specifically celebrated by the citizenry at large. (But perhaps that's just my biased/warped perception.)
The schools do not teach independent, rational thinking, nor do they do a decent job teaching American history or historical American political values.
In fact, they are much more likely to attack them. For example, by claiming that the Founding Fathers were slaveholding bigots, or that early settlers were genocidal. Both of which are oft-repeated claims that are much more false than true.
If we wanted to avoid all this, we would have needed to have separation of School and State, in the same way and for the same reasons we [are supposed to] have separation of Church and State.
The larger problem with the NSA and the generalized public, is that the problem is too far removed from everyday life. Most people can't figure out where the 'on' button is to their phone or computer, let alone find and download gpg software - or understand the difference and incompatibilities of S/MIME certs versus pgp keys.
And, of course something can be done about the NSA: 1. Encrypt your email. 2. Don't use Google or gmail. 3. Accept bitcoin for purchases.
However, I imagine many that know better complain about the "man" rather than educate the public and insist on changing their own habits.
In short - it's your fault - you give the NSA the power they have.
This is not the first time you have attempted to recast the movement towards truth in academics into "real American" victimhood. You may be distressed to find that the world still does not change because of your desires, that it will not ignore the beliefs in black inferiority put forth by men like Jefferson, and that it certainly will not ignore that even as late as the Civil War the people in charge of this country--among them some guy named A. Lincoln--thought it best to deport black people at the end of slavery because they were unable to conceive of an integrated world.
Heroification of impressive-but-flawed individuals has approximately fuck-all to teaching anything of use with regards to this problem. But you know that, you just for some reason have a problem with the idea that the Founding Fathers were, as a product of their time, kind of a bunch of bigoted dudes, and you really have to beat that drum that it upsets you and it's kind of tiring.
As for derogation--if you think your post wasn't derogatory, you should try getting outside your own head for a bit.