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Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by tammer on Friday June 20, 2014 @05:41PM (#7923051)
It's very clear where it's going. The number of administrative staff at colleges and universities have skyrocketed in the past 30 years.

Just like in the corporate world, corruption and the proliferation of unnecessary management have sucked revenue to the top.

http://www.salon.com/2014/06/08/colleges_are_full_of_it_behi...

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by bilbo0s on Friday June 20, 2014 @07:17PM (#7923438)
Just to point out what may not be so obvious... a lot of the administrative and non instructional staff are not what many of us would consider to be "management".

For instance, at the University of Wisconsin, there is an VERY large, extremely expensive bureaucracy called DoIT. It stands for "Division of Information Technology". Basically... it is the department for all of the IT people at the University. It is enormously expensive because of the nature of the work they do. And that is just one of the operations level bureaucracies that the University needs. There is Facilities. There is Campus Police, which are very important at a place like UW. Student Housing. Health Services. The list goes on and on.

These sorts of costs are not cheap, but they are necessary. Be that as it may, honest people CAN debate whether or not operational arms like DoIT are functioning as efficiently as they could be. My main point here was only to shed light on operational costs that many universities have which tend to be overlooked in conversations like these. Especially as those expenses are most likely the key contributors to the cost rises being discussed.

[Edited for grammar]

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by Zigurd on Friday June 20, 2014 @11:15PM (#7924030)
In my day, campus police were unarmed and called on actual police to work actual crimes, versus random disorder that did not rise to the level of crime.

Are today's college students such thugs that we need fully equipped police departments on campuses? Police departments are usually the second most expensive part of a municipal budget. How many of the "neccessary" bureaucracies did we do without a generation ago?

Universities below the elite level are headed for a massive crash. They better start the rethink soon.

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by glesica on Friday June 20, 2014 @11:31PM (#7924067)
As far as I know, most state universities have real police departments. The officers are effectively state police officers. I'm not sure how long this has been the case, but it is at least 20 or so years, if not quite a bit more.

Safety is a big issue, especially for parents (who pay many of the bills), so universities view law enforcement and safety spending as a competitive advantage.

It is also the case that many universities are located in small, rural communities that might not have the police resources to handle the campus population (for instance, I went to a school that had about as many students as there were non-student residents of the town).

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by jpulec on Friday June 20, 2014 @07:49PM (#7923505)
I worked at DoIT before graduating and moving out to the Bay Area. And your characterization regarding its bureaucracy and efficiency are pretty spot on.
Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by ams6110 on Friday June 20, 2014 @08:23PM (#7923610)
I worked at another Big Ten IT division. The amount of productive work per salary dollar would shock anyone in the start-up or corporate sector. Staff would roll in from 9:00 to 10:00AM, surf the web or fool around with some toys for a couple of hours, take a 90 minute lunch, go to a few meetings, and be out the door at 4:30 or 5:00PM. A lot of these people making 6 figures or close to it in a town where that is a VERY good salary. On top of that, 6 weeks of PTO and pretty generous benefits.

Every few years there would be a reorganization to create a bunch of new job titles and new useless layers of bureaucracy, since that's the only way to give people more than a cost-of-living raise.

You could fire half of them, hold the other half accountable to a reasonable level of productivity, and notice no difference. There might be a net gain.

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by HarryHirsch on Friday June 20, 2014 @08:49PM (#7923689)
In all of Europe 4 weeks of paid holidays and a regular 8-hour workday are the norm. And university is free or very affordable. What I'm saying is that poor working conditions and crippling student debt is a policy choice.
Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by thejdude on Saturday June 21, 2014 @10:08AM (#7924996)
I agree, except that people in Europe aren't paid for their holidays, but for their work. Companies are simply mandated to give you 4 weeks+ off per year - that money is of course deducted from what they would pay you otherwise.

Not saying that is a bad thing; actually, it probably improves overall productivity vs the US model. But it's not a free lunch, and it's not the employer's charity - it's the money people actually worked for, equally distributed over working days and holi-days.

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by kerneis on Sunday June 22, 2014 @02:48AM (#7927112)
I don't know where you got this idea, but it is just wrong. Of course, employers are free to do whatever back of the envelope calculation they want to decide your salary, but the law in France, the UK, and most other countries is about "paid leave" and that's exactly how it works.
Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by thejdude on Sunday June 22, 2014 @02:58AM (#7927125)
Yes, that's the part you SEE. But I'm pretty sure your boss doesn't pay your "paid vacation" out of his own money - it's part of the calculation of the total package they have to pay you (including your desk, the money they might have to pay to headhunters to acquire you, ...), mandatory state "insurances" or fees.

They only pay the value of the package - you can calculate your hourly rate on total yearly pay / yearly hours worked, or are free to imagine you get paid total yearly pay / total hours of the year, and then boom, you're also paid for the vacations, for weekends, for the nights and so on. But in fact you're only paid because your boss knows what value you provide and how many hours you'll be there that year.

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by scrabble on Friday June 20, 2014 @11:31PM (#7924066)
I worked in the IT department of a college while I was a student and this matches my experience of the full time staff. They couldn't even be terminated because they were unionized employees. I recall one terrible employee in particular who just sat at his desk and watched Star Trek Next Gen episodes all day, working his way through the series. What a waste of money.

The student employees weren't much better, because it wasn't ever established what their behavior should be. I remember a lot of time spent torrenting, watching movies, and playing games -- occasionally breaking to reimage a computer.

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by quasse on Friday June 20, 2014 @11:47PM (#7924104)
It's funny that DoIT comes up because I happen to work in the same building. I generally leave around 5:00 and without fail when I open my office door the lights are out because people rolled out so long ago that the system shut them off due to lack of activity. Either everyone gets to work at about 7:30am or nobody has ever worked an eight hour day this year.
Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by jjoonathan on Friday June 20, 2014 @05:48PM (#7923082)
I took a look at CMU's financials and it definitely looks like the money is going towards salaries. They don't offer a breakdown between the different kinds of salaries, naturally. Does anyone know of a representative dataset (by "representative" I mean "not the UC system, not an ivy with >$10b endowment, etc") that would include this information?

https://www.cmu.edu/finance/reporting-and-incoming-funds/fin...

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by bradleyjg on Friday June 20, 2014 @06:26PM (#7923243)
There's a bunch of relevant data in this paper, albeit from 2008 (starting on 21): http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2153122

Here's a summary of the conclusions

A recent study by two professors of economics attempts to arrive at the ideal ratio of tenured and tenure-track faculty to administrators in order to operate effectively. Analyzing data from 137 public universities from 1987 through 2008, they found that on average the ratio was two administrators to one full-time faculty member when the most cost-effective ratio is one administrator for every three full-time faculty members. They found that an imbalance between administrators and faculty where administrators outnumber faculty is what accounts for the rise in costs. Administrators and non-instructional staff have continued to rise despite less state funding. Furthermore, more part-time faculty are being hired at very low wages to offset the costs of administrators whose salaries tend to be much higher than faculty. Critics argue that the ratio should not be applied universally, as different types of universities have different needs when it comes to instructional vs. supervisory staff. But many agree that the goal of higher education is to focus on those who are in the classroom and not those pursuing an agenda of business development.

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by sitkack on Friday June 20, 2014 @08:13PM (#7923565)
Put the administrators on a living wage and send them home.
Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by nkurz on Friday June 20, 2014 @06:18PM (#7923211)
Here are numbers for Duke and Barnard. I have no idea if they are representative, but they have respectively 10% and 5% of their total budget going to administration. The Barnard link has quite a depth of information.

Duke: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/02/14/277015271/duke-60-...

Barnard: https://barnard.edu/sites/default/files/inline/2012_data_boo...

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by Retric on Friday June 20, 2014 @07:38PM (#7923484)
That's not really true. Duke includes finical aid as a cost but that's not actual spending. So from the chart, 10/.76 = ~13% is administrative costs.

Though the Text says out of 90k in spending $14,000 goes to pay a share of administrative and academic support salaries which puts just salary's for administration at 15.5 not including their share of the building etc.

So, a reasonable estimate ~25-40% of each dollar actually spent goes to administration depending on where you draw the line. AKA is a dean Administration or Faculty.

PS: Not that facility get to actually spend anywhere close to 100% of there time on teaching.

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by avn2109 on Friday June 20, 2014 @08:23PM (#7923608)
Barnard is a special case for the following reasons:

0) It is one of Columbia University's affiliated undergraduate schools, so facilities/athletics/administration/some budgets are tightly coupled to the mothership, which has approximately more money than god and subsidizes many things

1) It is in NYC, so the cost structure is not representative of the rest of America

2)) It is a Women's college, which probably changes some stuff (though I don't know what)

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by chimeracoder on Saturday June 21, 2014 @11:52AM (#7925271)
Points 0 and 1 are (mostly) correct, though I don't think point 2 really has any appreciable impact on the costs.

To clarify one thing: Columbia doesn't exactly "subsidize" Barnard - in fact, Barnard maintains its own independent endowment and board of trustees. Columbia and Barnard "partner" together to provide a number of joint services (for example, Columbia students majoring in theater take their classes at Barnard, and vice versa for some other departments, but many departments exist independently at each school). Barnard retains its own independent administration for most positions; there is very little sharing of administrative roles.

Student organizations are joint-funded through student fees, and almost all are open to both Columbia and Barnard students. In fact, there was some debate a few years back about the Barnard group overseeing student organizations not contributing its fair share towards Greek life[0], which was soon rectified. It is important that fund transfers between (e.g) Columbia College and Barnard are generally not considered internal transfers the way (e.g.) Columbia College and SEAS (the engineering school) would be.

This is not unlike the situation at certain other schools like Harvard and MIT, which sometimes allow cross-enrollment, or other schools which pool resources for student activities. The main difference is that Barnard professors are awarded tenure from Columbia University, not from Barnard (which cannot grant tenure independently).

That said, I agree that Barnard's expenses are not indicative, but that's more because they share many resources with another school (Columbia) and reap efficiencies that way, not because Columbia "subsidizes" their costs. Columbia saves a lot of money from these partnerships as well, and I doubt that they would keep the current setup if they didn't feel that they benefited from it financially as well.

[0] http://columbiaspectator.com/2011/04/26/inter-greek-council-...

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by Nicholas_C on Friday June 20, 2014 @06:54PM (#7923361)
>Does anyone know of a representative dataset (by "representative" I mean "not the UC system, not an ivy with >$10b endowment, etc") that would include this information?

All government employee salaries in the state of Texas are public info [0], I used to check out how much my professors made. And how much my dad made. You can see salaries by employer as well. I'm not sure where to find historical salary data but it has to exist somewhere.

[0] http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee...

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by jhalstead on Friday June 20, 2014 @07:10PM (#7923412)
Here's [1] data for all the public universities in IL.

[1] http://www.ibhe.state.il.us/PA96266/search.aspx

Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by zacinbusiness on Saturday June 21, 2014 @05:37AM (#7924563)
And don't forget sports teams. Almost all football programs, for instance, actually cost the university more money than they bring in. This includes revenue from sports memorabilia. Source: friend worked in athletics at my uni and they were extremely proud when they started breaking even.
Re:Teaching college is no longer a middle-class job, and eve... by sogen on Friday June 20, 2014 @07:02PM (#7923386)
sounds like education in Mexico