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Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by sliverstorm on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:00PM (#7879410)
Software grows to match the hardware. If storage goes up 100x, data will grow to accommodate.

Some things won't grow, to be sure. Anything text-based, for example. But movies, music, pictures... would probably all explode in fidelity and thus size.

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by viraptor on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:09PM (#7879466)
Would movies and music really explode? Music hit the ceiling long time ago - nobody's going to go for higher resolution / sampling rate than the current "uncompressed" sound. Big publishers are intentionally sacrificing the quality for loudness anyway.

Movies can practically scale up to retina-equivalent on wall-size equivalent only. Even then not many people will want TVs bigger than they can look at without moving their eyes...

Pictures could still grow, especially the internal raw representation taken from the light capturing element, but that's likely to be down-scaled when saving to kill noise.

What else is there that really takes space? (that is not limited by the effective resolution of human senses)

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by JoshTriplett on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:57PM (#7879760)
> Music hit the ceiling long time ago - nobody's going to go for higher resolution / sampling rate than the current "uncompressed" sound.

Spatial audio that supports dynamically computed surround sound for arbitrarily many speakers and headphones.

> Movies can practically scale up to retina-equivalent on wall-size equivalent only. Even then not many people will want TVs bigger than they can look at without moving their eyes...

> Pictures could still grow, especially the internal raw representation taken from the light capturing element, but that's likely to be down-scaled when saving to kill noise.

1) High color depth, allowing bright and dim objects to coexist in the same picture without loss of fidelity, and allowing dynamic lighting.

2) Complete depth data, allowing dynamic depth of field changes.

3) Complete geometry and scene-graph data, allowing you to change the camera and perspective.

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by jerf on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @03:18PM (#7879892)
"Spatial audio that supports dynamically computed surround sound for arbitrarily many speakers and headphones."

Still covers only a small arbitrary constant factor of data that is already very small by modern standards.

Note that surround sound data is, IIRC, already not "twice" the size of stereo.

And your video points 1 and 2 are also still at most only small constant factors of increase over what we already have, with 3 potentially being a compression technique.

Video is nearing its apex; sound is pretty much already there.

There's actually a maximum rate at which our senses can convey information to our brains; any use of data beyond that rate is literally impossible and anything carried beyond that is wasted. Even a full sensorium just isn't that much larger than what we already have. We are, after all, talking about technologies that are in the same ballpark as the maximum theoretical data density that human brains can have, and in practice the memristor storage is going to be much higher. It should not be surprising that it's very difficult to truly "use" all that storage.

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by viraptor on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @09:01PM (#7881296)
> Note that surround sound data is, IIRC, already not "twice" the size of stereo.

Even stereo is also not twice the size of mono. (using joint-stereo encoding)

Agree with all the other points too.

> 2) Complete depth data, allowing dynamic depth of field changes.

This does extend the natural sense range, but is also already possible/done.

> 3) Complete geometry and scene-graph data, allowing you to change the camera and perspective.

That should actually take less space than the final scene in many cases...

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by maxerickson on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @04:00PM (#7880105)
Isn't having a computer process some data and zoom in on a portion of it 'using of data beyond the rate at which our senses can convey information to our brains'?

I guess you are talking about the utility of media at higher and higher fidelity and I am just snagging on how you have phrased it.

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by hderms on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @06:26PM (#7880799)
It's a good point, though. He is mainly speaking to the data rates for media involving 'guided' experiences. Interactive experiences would benefit much more linearly with the amount of data able to be stored (google maps on your phone analogy).
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by TkTech on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:27PM (#7879573)
Sensor data is one I would guess. Modern cell phones have an incredible number of sensors in them, but usually don't log the data when it's quickly sampled (accelerometers, background mic), or sample it rarely/slowly (GPS, barometer, ambient lighting) when it is logged. I would personally love to have days, weeks, or months of raw data sampled frequently.

Edit: I'd imagine this is due both to a limited amount of storage, a limited number of writes to current sold-state mediums, and energy usage, all of which this technology appears to solve.

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by DelwinAmber on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:33PM (#7879612)
Energy usage is the huge one - if this is applied to computing and not just storage then maybe.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by valarauca1 on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @03:46PM (#7880036)
Sensor data is dirt cheap to store. Even at 100 data points per second. It takes 10 seconds to store a kilobyte of data (1000) data points). At 64 bits per point.

1GB/s of streaming data is 10,737,418 channels of 100 point per second 64bit floats.

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by noobermin on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:38PM (#7879638)
I think my argument is that we will find new things to store on our PC's similar to how we found new stuff to store on our PC's from the 90s till now.

I guess it is hard to imagine, but let's dream a bit...one ridiculous possibility that I've thought about is consider something like google glass. Imagine recording every moment of your day from your smart phone, and not just when you wake up. Why would you do this? Well, may be there for little things like having a meeting with someone and you want to remember details without writing it down. Why take the time to record it manually when you have the ability to do it in HD, for cheap?

Again, this is hard to imagine wanting to do especially for privacy reasons, but were things like facebook and twitter easy to imagine in the 80s? As things things have changed, so have social norms...I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, I'm just stating an observation.

So, I happen to not have any HD vids on my laptop at the moment, but I have a normal video on my laptop that is 10 minutes long that is 70 MB. For something like recording video for 10 hours say, that's 6 * 70 * 10~4GB. So, yeah that's about 250 days (little less than a year) on your smart phone at 1 TB ignoring all other things (full seasons of vids of shows, as another commenter mentioned, stuff like raw gps data that could be added to the video, other things), so may be it isn't quite reaching the limit but it's a good example for how as we have more space for stuff, it is possible to imagine finding more things to fill your smartphone's new TB of storage with.

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by vezzy-fnord on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @03:27PM (#7879946)
Again, this is hard to imagine wanting to do especially for privacy reasons, but were things like facebook and twitter easy to imagine in the 80s?

Much easier than the example you give, yes. Considering things like Xanadu were already theorized in the '60s, Facebook and Twitter wouldn't be that huge of a stretch. What's more, Usenet and BBSes already existed in the '80s, so there was a text-based glimpse of the future in some way.

Of course, imagining the scale, deep technical details and the heavy use of graphics back then was likely difficult. But the general concept? Hardly. Especially not something as simplistic as Twitter, the idea of it was most certainly not alien back then.

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by noobermin on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @03:40PM (#7880011)
I wasn't referring to technical aspects, I was referring to social aspects. I'll admit I wasn't born in the 80's, but even when I was a kid in the 90's, I couldn't imagine sharing my day-to-day interactions with 100's of people.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by dman on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:41PM (#7879661)
Retaining program traces for every program executed on the system.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by frik on Thursday June 12, 2014 @03:17AM (#7882191)
Holographic movies require a high bandwidth and a lot of storage space (recorded/pre-rendered).

Current holographic displays require a movie-source for every few-point. And to make it convincing for a small POV (e.g. 19" 4:3 holographic monitor) you need at least 8 few-points, for a 360° next-gen holographic display you would many terrabytes of data for one movie (and a high bandwidth to stream the data to the display). Depending on the holographic technology you need additonally a very high resolution in contrast to the visual output. If you use a common HD resolution the current visible pixel range is about 640x480 - at least some expensive research displays I used in 2011.

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by frik on Thursday June 12, 2014 @07:23AM (#7882781)
*view-point
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by swalsh on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:32PM (#7879604)
Think about the oculus rift, movies/media might become a lot more complicated as VR or VR like technology comes of age. Or if its not VR there might be some other technology.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by regularfry on Thursday June 12, 2014 @05:26AM (#7882517)
Caches for streaming the media. The BBC has this problem every now and again, with big events or popular shows: the pipes to the cabinets in the streets aren't big enough to unicast to everyone simultaneously. A CDN node in every cabinet is probably not too far off.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by aragot on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:10PM (#7879477)
> Software grows to match the hardware.

You mean XML for instance?

Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by swalsh on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:33PM (#7879611)
Not sure why he was downvoted, xml is a trade off for developer convenience. A trade off we were willing to make because we had disposable bits.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by valarauca1 on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @02:54PM (#7879741)
What was the trade off? Harder to parse files for less human readability?
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by Touche on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @03:25PM (#7879932)
What was the predecessor to xml that was easier to read?
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by biot on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @03:46PM (#7880037)

  "If GML was an infant, SGML is the bright youngster who far
   exceeds expectations and made its parents too proud, but
   XML is the drug-addicted gang member who had committed his
   first murder before he had sex, which was rape." -- Erik Naggum
GML is from the late 1960s and is, arguably, easier to read. SGML from the 1980s expanded upon this. XML is essentially just an offshoot of SGML and much less readable than SGML is. For example, here is a valid SGML document:

  <anthology>
    <poem>
      <title>The SICK ROSE
      <stanza>
        <line>O Rose thou art sick.
        <line>The invisible worm, 
        <line>That flies in the night
        <line>In the howling storm:
      <stanza>
        <line>Has found out thy bed
        <line>Of crimson joy:
        <line>And his dark secret love 
        <line>Does thy life destroy.
    <poem> 
      <!-- more poems go here    -->
  </anthology>
Aside from XML's lineage, there is no shortage of markup languages available with varying levels of readability.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by Touche on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @04:00PM (#7880107)
I'm confused, why does anthology have a closing tag but the other elements do not?
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by __david__ on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @04:14PM (#7880169)
The same reason <ul> has a closing tag but <li> does not: HTML is SGML where certain tags can be made optional. XML specifically did away with this and made all close tags mandatory (even on contentless tags, which is why xhtml requires you to do <img />).
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by Touche on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @04:23PM (#7880212)
Just to be clear, are some closing tags optional or are all closing tags optional? If the former, how do you know which?
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by Tuna-Fish on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @08:43PM (#7881242)
In this case, the schema probably disallows any other tags inside <line>, which makes </line> superfluous and it can thus be omitted. If <stanza>s are not recursive and poems cannot contain <line>s outside <stanza>s, </stanza> can also be omitted. Etc etc.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by justincormack on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @04:45PM (#7880337)
You work it out from the schema - if it is not ambiguous you can omit it.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by meepmorp on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @04:28PM (#7880240)
I think it's funny to see people quoting Erik Naggum, though perhaps that's just because my context for him is largely his rather prolific and fiery output on usenet.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @05:24PM (#7880525)
I don't know much about him except from his essays about time and XML, both of which I think are spot on, despite the fiery language.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @04:39PM (#7880297)
S-expressions.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by dtech on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @04:04PM (#7880122)
CSV
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by MichaelGG on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @04:32PM (#7880261)
XML's only real problem is the dumb idea of requiring closing tags to have the tag name. Otherwise it'd be just as fine as, say, JSON:

  <a>b</>
  "A":"B"
And maybe one can get upset about the entity encoding and other extra aspects. But those aren't really why XML feels so large.
Re:With 'The Machine,' HP May Have Invented a New Kind of Co... by 7952 on Wednesday June 11, 2014 @03:34PM (#7879976)
Bandwidth won't grow and IMHO that is now the chief constraint in computing. For low usage it is cheaper to store data on S3 for a month than buying the bandwidth to transfer it once!