Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, how effective were they?

Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by famousactress on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @02:58PM (#7599772)

I will say that where I work we appear to have managed to get on a list of "startups to send your resume to" by one or two of these bootcamp shops, and the resumes tend to be severely underwhelming. Here are some of the things that have been negatively affecting my reaction to them (I share in hopes this is useful, not to bash bootcamps or folks that attend them!):

ONLY A GITHUB PROFILE

It seems pretty clear that the bootcamps told you we really care about your github profile, and that sometimes gets interpreted as "to the exclusion of everything else".

APPARENTLY BORN SIX MONTHS AGO

Related to the over-emphasis on github profiles is the exclusion of anything not-code related. I get that code bootcamps attract lots of folks who maybe got a political science degree or spent the last three years in real estate. Tell me that. I'd love to see what you've been up to, we're looking to hire you, not your ability to code. I hope these institutions aren't making folks feel like their past isn't valuable because it didn't involve Rails.

ALSO THE GITHUB PROFILE IS BORING

The profiles tend to have some code camp rails homework in them. It's hard to go from learning to code to having a github profile that's impressive in a short period of time (Hell, I've been working for well over a decade and my github profile isn't impressive!).. That said, if you do want me to care about your github profile I'd rather see signs of enthusiasm in the form of personal gists or projects or thoughtful bug reports or feature tickets on other projects.

DISGUISES THE CODE BOOTCAMP AFFILIATION

Seems like the elephant in the room on these things is where you've been learning to code and how you found us. Many of the resumes seem to avoid being transparent about this. I wanna know which bootcamp you did, what got you interested, and how it went.

THEY TOLD YOU TO EMAIL US

It's clear that we're on a list and plenty of candidates email us without knowing (or maybe caring) about what we do. That's a non-starter. Frankly, I doubt that the people who even put us on the list of shops to mail looked any closer than a crunch-base profile or Who's Hiring post on HN.

RAILS

The resumes I'm seeing clearly come from a bootcamp that emphasizes Rails and JS/HTML. That's great, but we're not a rails shop and the candidate is brand spanking new to this. It's probably better that you continue your investment in Rails before doing a wholesale dive into another platform.

At any rate, I love that camps like this exist. I've long thought our industry needs really good trade education to supplement CS programs which are focused and affordable ways to launch folks who are interested into software development. I just think the packaging and presentation of folks coming out of these things could use some work.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by ChuckMcM on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @03:44PM (#7600079)

This is similar to what I've seen. It is challenging enough being a startup, its even more challenging to try to be a remedial computer science program and get stuff done.

What is strange is the exact same thing happened in the late 90's during the first bubble. In that case it was "webmaster" was the new thing and there were these sorts of boot camps that would turn you into a webmaster in just a few short weeks so you could take your place in the .com revolution. Massive numbers of those folks were doing that because they wanted more money per month and were trying any way they could to get it. They made for really bad web designers because they really didn't care about things and at the end of the day, coding is about caring and interest.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by voidlogic on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @03:59PM (#7600191)

>its even more challenging to try to be a remedial computer science program and get stuff done.

I have even felt this pain at a former employer who hired IS majors as devs. The only IS majors that tended hold there own was the ones with CS minors.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by duaneb on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @04:44PM (#7600412)

To be fair, learning to code well is HARD and takes a lot of time, and more importantly, practice. Stayin inside coding as a kid was the best decision of my life, career-wise.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by famousactress on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @04:56PM (#7600492)

I agree with you and parent. I think the real value of programs like this probably ought to be to help identify people who do have an aptitude and interest for this but for whatever reason haven't learned already and want an alternative to a college degree program to get in the workforce. I suspect the net that's cast is often quite wider than that though :)

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by ChuckMcM on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @04:50PM (#7600458)

Totally agree with this. The key is that if you're hiring someone from a bootcamp program you need to carefully build an on-boarding process for them that can effectively spoon feed the critical bits of your infrastructure/platform to them so that they don't waste any time in becoming productive.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by mikeyanderson on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @07:23PM (#7601130)

At Code Fellows we have quite a few students who use boot camps to switch stacks or they have legacy CS experience that they are getting back into. We also have a lot of newer folks. One of the things that we've seen at Code Fellows is that incoming students need to have a Foundational understanding of data structures, algorithms, and data types—and also a experience in the stack they are going to take a boot camp in. If they have these ingredients and relevant experience then they can take off in those 8 weeks and be prepared and inspired to keep learning, growing, and get a job. We are super clear that this is a HARD life long process—and that's part of the fun/agony of it all :)

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by AdrianRossouw on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @11:02PM (#7601829)

I've noticed the same need, which is why I started a series of articles trying to cover that stuff.

http://daemon.co.za/2014/04/introduction-fullstack-fundament...

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by joesmo on Thursday April 17, 2014 @01:16AM (#7602096)

"Related to the over-emphasis on github profiles is the exclusion of anything not-code related."

Most people hiring wouldn't and it's pretty common to remove things from one's resume that are unrelated to the position applied for. It's expected, actually, as most people who are hiring don't want to waste time trying to sort qualifications from chuff.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by famousactress on Thursday April 17, 2014 @10:11AM (#7603624)

Well I'd kindly submit that those people are completely fucking it up. I also doubt you're correct about "most".

Again, I'm hiring you holistically.. not your ability to program. I think especially if your ability to program is a new facet to your otherwise rich and interesting existence then you're hurting yourself not sharing more.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by joesmo on Thursday April 17, 2014 @02:10PM (#7605258)

Unfortunately, what you want goes against every single source of resume advice I've ever read. In fact, I'd like to see a source that doesn't advise against it. It's likely that the candidates are reading the same material and thinking that this is what employers want. IMO, the advice is spot on. The only things under consideration in a hiring decision should be things that directly reflect one's skills as pertaining to the job. If you're evaluating based on other criteria, it may go as far as being illegal (discrimination). Perhaps you find ten years worth of trucking experience relevant for a coding job. Most employers don't and won't waste the time reading a long resume, especially if it's irrelevant. It's likely it won't even get past the initial screening phase.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by famousactress on Friday April 18, 2014 @12:50PM (#7609939)

> In fact, I'd like to see a source that doesn't advise against it.

I just gave you one :) As far as legality, there's an enormous difference between wanting to know how someone approached and what they learned from a previous career (or school, or serious hobby, etc.) and crossing the line into discrimination. It's not that difficult.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by jessalyst on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @06:04PM (#7600818)

Great advice! I am on the non-technical side of our team but I work closely with the devs and have recently attended a career fair at a university and was faced with the same problem. Grads came to us wanting to work with us but with little to no research on the company and the biggest thing to me was no reason as to why they wanted to work with us. Something I find for new grads, from any type of program, are lacking a foundation in how to find the right job for them. They panic and apply to every single job opening without stopping to think what is important to them in a job and what it is they actually want to do. All be it we all have to start somewhere, but starting somewhere you're passionate about from the start is going to have a huge impact on how you begin your career!

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by famousactress on Thursday April 17, 2014 @10:14AM (#7603653)

That's a good point, I've seen that with new grads. I do think if you're actively seeking out junior folks via career fairs etc then you've kind of reversed the funnel and it makes sense that people might scatter-shot apply without knowing lots about you and are hoping to get interviews and find out who they're interested in at that point. That's probably totally reasonable, I guess it makes sense to adjust your process and expectations to accommodate if new-grad hiring is a big focus.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by agius on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @04:51PM (#7600468)

I would think just starting out is the perfect time to switch over to Python / Node / whatever... you've got your head around the concepts of MVC, object-oriented programming, etc, but haven't settled into a routine about how to use your particular language and framework. Once you're specialized, switching costs only grow.

Plus, if you hire a bootcamp grad, you're probably going to have to do lots of on-the-job training anyway. Good time to indoctrinate the candidate with the "right" way to do things in your particular codebase.

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Re:Ask HN: If you worked with a grad from a code bootcamp, h... by famousactress on Wednesday April 16, 2014 @05:01PM (#7600512)

Maybe.. I only have the "Worked with one language for a couple years before switching" experience, and not the other. I feel like when I learn other languages having had a strong fundamental in other ones is what makes it possible for me to know what I'm looking for and get up to speed. I worry that switching super early in your learning process would make learning the fundamentals slower, but I'm probably not qualified to say.

All of that said, I think there are plenty of rails shops and if you're from one of these camps you'll likely feel more confident & productive right away and your confidence and ability to ask the right questions will be paramount in your success in a first-coding position I think... so my advice would likely be to still maximize for your current strengths and try to stay in your burgeoning wheelhouse.

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