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Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @02:53PM (#758905)
Please don't attack the messenger, even for a bad story.

Unless you have proof that Dvorak was purposely lying, slandering him doesn't make your case any better.

After all, if he screws this one up, he's going to have a very hard time getting respectability and credibility for future articles. That punishment is enough.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by gruseom on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:09PM (#759113)
I think this comment is perverse.

Please don't attack the messenger

That phrase has always referred to someone delivering an unwanted truth. There was no "message" here at all, and no "messenger". "Please don't attack the libeler" would be more accurate. That doesn't pack the same pseudo-compassionate punch, does it?

Unless you have proof that Dvorak was purposely lying

That is an impossibly high and irrelevant bar. Gross irresponsibility, incompetence, and total disrespect for the truth aren't enough for you?

slandering him

Wow. That's a rich use of the word "slander", considering the activity this guy was just engaging in.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:51PM (#759214)
Gross irresponsibility, incompetence, and total disrespect for the truth aren't enough for you?

Please demonstrate this is the case. All I see is a guy who thought he had a hot story, made a few calls, and published before he got all the facts. Looks like the confusion in school names is what led to this.

Where is all of this terrible negligence you mention?

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by TomOfTTB on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @10:43PM (#759865)
I consider myself pretty open minded but I honestly can't even see where you're coming from here. The question here was "Did the man have the degree he claimed to?" and that story involved 2, only TWO, facts. The University he claimed the degree is from and the type of degree.

Of those 2 facts, Dvorak failed to correctly verify one of them and then drew a false conclusion based on that and screwed up the second one. That would be journalistic negligence from anyone. But when you add Dvorak having admitted to writing stories just to generate traffic (http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/9838/) you get a picture of a dishonest man.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by otto on Thursday August 13, 2009 @01:57AM (#760111)
I'd say his terrible negligence is in having no professional ethics as a journalist. I expect a journalist to do some fact checking.

http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:15PM (#759129)
Sorry -- strange as this may seem, I don't read Dvorak. I don't know him from Adam.

Seems like a lot of other people do, though, and have strong opinions!

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by gruseom on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:23PM (#759154)
I don't know anything about him either. My opinion has nothing to do with Dvorak. It has to do with your painting him as a victim of defamation when he obviously was the one doing the defaming.
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by tokenadult on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:57PM (#759229)
Under United States law, it's difficult indeed to prove defamation of a public official by a news media organization. My current view of today's news is that Dvorak was sloppy, but that his conduct doesn't constitute the "actual malice" that the Supreme Court requires for a successful defamation claim in such circumstances.
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:46PM (#759200)
This gets directly into motivation, as I pointed out. If Dvorak purposely defamed somebody, that's one thing. I'd love to hear evidence about that.

If, on the other hand, he was just being sloppy, then it's a mistake. Let it go. All this name-calling says more about the name-callers than it does about Dvorak.

People who are sloppy and get slammed don't "deserve" it. Screw-ups happen. I'm perfectly willing to let some columnist I don't read the benefit of the doubt of screwing up. In return, I'd appreciate it if people gave me the same benefit of the doubt. This is just common sense.

Look at it this way -- isn't this an excellent example of the net publishing bad information and then correcting itself almost immediately? With any other story, people would be talking about how much better we have things now than when we only had printed media.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by sophacles on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @05:42PM (#759355)
Dvorak has a reputation for publishing these screw-ups. It has been going on for years. The guy is the shock jock of tech columnists, or maybe a Bill O'Reilly, or at least that has been his reputation for a long time. This sort of history, going back years, should be taken into account when people judge the most recent actions. This is just common sense.

Your personal ignorance does not mean you are correct to chide those who do know of Dvorak and his history.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @05:58PM (#759386)
So if I understand you correctly, you're saying once you get to know Dvorak, he really is a jackass.

Let's grant your point. Then still, why call it out? Let's suppose Dvorak is the worst jackass in the history of jackasses. Let's also suppose that anybody who knew Dvorak would agree that he is the epitome of jackasses. Proper response: "Remember when Dvorak did X, Y, and Z? I'm not sure what the situation is now, but this looks like it might be one of those situations."

Why get so emotional? It's just a web column, for chrissakes. The truth was outed almost immediately. Whatever damage happened happened for about 2 hours. Do you guys live some kind of perverse emotional life through these tech columnists? If so, get a life already. Words are cheap. That's why we always ask for links, and double-check sources.

When you call somebody a name, you're attempting to shut down anything useful they might have to offer in the future. It's the ultimate ad hominem argument: no need to listen to anything Dvorak says because he's an X.

I think it's completely idiotic to go there. Everybody has something useful to offer at some time or another.

In those Frankenstein movies there always was a large crowd with torches and pitchforks who stormed the castle looking for the monster. I'm sure there was some guy in the back who was going, "Hey guys, couldn't we just send the sheriff? Why all the yelling and panic?"

I feel like that guy.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by ubernostrum on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @07:23PM (#759540)
"Why get so emotional? It's just a web column, for chrissakes. The truth was outed almost immediately. Whatever damage happened happened for about 2 hours."

And during those two hours this story was everywhere. Remember the old saying: a lie can run halfway around the world while the truth is still putting its shoes on.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by jhancock on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @02:59PM (#758924)
I hear you, but Dvorak did publish a slander against Kundra based simply on his rudimentary queries. This is hardly good journalism.

from the article: "But I was able to verify Kundra's degree with just a few phone calls in under two hours."

If your going to publish something so incendiary, you really must do your homework.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by socratees on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @05:39PM (#759352)
Its dishonest to imply the degree is from University of Maryland. UMUC is not UMCP. It is in the University of Maryland system, it is not "University of Maryland".
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by shpxnvz on Thursday August 13, 2009 @11:07AM (#760915)
UMCP is no more the definitive "University of Maryland" than UMUC. While they may be the "flagship" university in the system, according to their site, they are still UMCP, not simply UM.
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by Kaizyn on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:20PM (#759143)
Saying you made a few phone calls does not constitute proof of anything. Dvorak put forward more evidence to support his claim than the author of the nextgov piece. Yeah, that claim is from the article, but are we supposed to simply take his word for it?
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by jhancock on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @07:16PM (#759524)
I don't say I "believe" the nextgov piece simply because he published it. There is less of a barrier to publication there since its not tearing down a person. But if your going to publish an accusation like Dvorak did, you better have done _all_ your homework.
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @03:04PM (#758935)
Sure thing. That's the way it looks here too.

So now he's got to live with this Charlie Foxtrot for the rest of his life. Digging down into the sewer with him and throwing it around some doesn't help anybody.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by calambrac on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @03:15PM (#758973)
All the other "Charlie Foxtrots" (btw, wtf?) that he's perpetrated up until now, he doesn't have to live with those? How many inflammatory fuckups does a person get to commit before its fair game to point out that they're a jackass?
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by jgrahamc on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @03:17PM (#758977)
Charlie Foxtrot is phonetic speak for CF which is sometimes used to mean cluster fuck.
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @03:17PM (#758980)
I believe that's for you to answer, since you're the one calling him one.

What's your number? Three? Four?

Guy might end up losing his job and being a mockery the rest of his life and all you've got to offer is to pile on? What is this, kindergarten?

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by calambrac on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @03:51PM (#759072)
Wow, you really think he might lose his job over this? I hadn't even really allowed myself to dream such a thing. That would be peaches, though.

Let's be clear: Dvorak isn't just some guy, he's a professional troll. We're not picking him out of obscurity and pantsing him in front of his classmates. He chooses to be a writer, to push people's buttons, to publish inflammatory material without doing any kind of research. If he loses his job, it'll only be because this is somehow the first time he's actually crossed the line into libel, and if he's a mockery for the rest of his life, he's in the same state he was a week ago, except now maybe some political junkies are in on it, too.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by davidw on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @03:45PM (#759053)
Wasn't he one of the 'journalists' who bought into the SCO vs Linux thing?

One way to not risk your job and reputation is to be very careful prior to publishing lies about people in widely circulated publications.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @03:52PM (#759074)
I think the followup to this story -- the impact on blogging, relationship of a columnist as a reporter, the degree of fact-checking needed before publishing, what, if anything happens to Dvorak -- is going to be much more interesting than the story itself.
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by scott_s on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:32PM (#759172)
I think that would be great if it happened, but I don't think it will.
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by calambrac on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @02:58PM (#758921)
It takes more than one bad story to establish yourself as a complete jackass. Dvorak finished the necessary legwork for that designation years ago.
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by gehant on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @03:08PM (#758947)
Dvorak was more than a messenger he was the creator & instigator...

Would you argue he's just "blogging" so fact-based reporting is optional?

Dvorak was pushing the limits of responsible journalism (similar to TechCrunch at times).

We agree on one thing: his credibility is taking a huge hit, rightfully so.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by technomancy on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:27PM (#759162)
He's trading credibility for ad hits. If that's his intention, he's doing a great job of it.
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by pavs on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @02:54PM (#758912)
This is not the first time he "screwed up".
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by DanielBMarkham on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @02:56PM (#758916)
Then politely point out the times he did beforehand. Did he not do enough research and make a politically-charged article in the past? Then that's germane to the conversation. We'd like to hear about it.

But calling somebody a jackass is not.

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by eli on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @03:23PM (#759002)
One amusing incident was when he took Microsoft to task for creating a "System Idle Process" that uses up all his available CPU time. That's about the time I stopped reading his column.

There are many other examples: http://www.google.com/search?q=john+dvorak+idiot or http://www.google.com/search?q=john+dvorak+moron

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by pavs on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:41PM (#759195)
Someone already pointed out his "screw ups" so I will not repeat them.

Anyone who "screws up" quite a lot I think it is fair to call him a jackass. ie, Arrington

Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by sophacles on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @05:43PM (#759359)
No, it's ok to call them incompetent. However it is ok to call self-admitted trolls jackasses, so you're safe :-P
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by missile on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:43PM (#759198)
Truth, according to the law, is a complete defense against slander. With that in mind: Dvorak is a moron.
Re:Verified: Kundra Did Receive an M.S. in Information Syste... by tokenadult on Wednesday August 12, 2009 @04:54PM (#759221)
Please don't attack the messenger, even for a bad story.

Yes. The source may prompt more fact-checking about the reported facts than some other source, but as I have said before,

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=555734

Consider the radical possibility that any person you disagree with in general might accidentally make a correct factual statement in a particular case.