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Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by jbooth on Thursday April 03, 2014 @10:04AM (#7522833)
Well, the US has a pretty checkered history regarding Cuba if you're going to talk about altruism. I'd say we've done more to inadvertantly prop up that regime than to undermine it. There are 3 nominally communist countries left in the world, from a high of dozens -- Cuba's one of them, and probably the closest to actually being communist (China and North Korea being technocratic-capitalist and pharaonic, respectively).
Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by jacobolus on Thursday April 03, 2014 @10:35AM (#7523080)
To be fair to the Cuban regime, during the period from the 1960s through at least the 1980s, Cuba did better (in terms of health, education, political stability, lack of large-scale violence, (relatively) responsive government, etc.) than most other countries in Latin America or the Caribbean, arguably largely because the US wasn’t able to replace the government with a right-wing dictatorship like the ones that dominated most of the rest of the region.

Obviously Castro is no saint, and had no qualms about repressing political dissidents (and I think those on the left in the US and Europe who hold up Cuba or Venezuela as some kind of bastions of freedom are delusional), but on the whole, Cuba actually did reasonably well for itself, especially considering the economic difficulties caused by the U.S. embargo.

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by gadders on Thursday April 03, 2014 @10:44AM (#7523150)
For that whole period it was heavily subsidised by the USSR.
Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by jacobolus on Thursday April 03, 2014 @10:58AM (#7523260)
What else were they supposed to do when their next-door superpower blocked all trade, and brought substantial resources to bear on trying to undermine/destroy them? Invasion plots, assassination plots, every kind of wacky propaganda plot you can imagine (fake radio stations, leaflets dropped from planes), financial support for dissident groups, etc. etc.

My point was just that regular Cubans actually did alright, much better than US propaganda would have you believe, and better than most of the other states in the region, including those which were heavily subsidized by the US.

They could have easily ended up with a fascist police state or a civil war.

American policymakers obviously had legitimate reasons to fear anything that seemed like it might further Soviet interests, given the overall climate of the Cold War, and so as someone born in the mid 1980s I find it hard to judge their intentions and actions, after the fact. However, I tend to think that things would have turned out much better overall for everyone involved if we had kept up diplomatic and economic relations with the Castro regime right from the start, instead of basically forcing them into Soviet arms.

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by jbooth on Thursday April 03, 2014 @11:00AM (#7523288)
..and the right-wing juntas up and down latin america were subsidized by the US. Cuba still did better.

You could say, "But that's not a fair comparison, the USSR subsidized things that actually helped people in Cuba while the US only funded commando death squads and fruit exporters, of course Cuba had a higher standard of living".. at which point I'd ask you to review what you just wrote.

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by crusso on Thursday April 03, 2014 @01:06PM (#7524260)
Wow, a "preemptive strike straw man". You don't see that every day. :)
Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by jbooth on Thursday April 03, 2014 @01:22PM (#7524405)
Apparently you feel obligated to disagree with my substance, but had to settle for attacking my writing style.

It wasn't pre-emptive or a straw man -- the poster had just (not pre-emptive) said that living standards were an unfair comparison due to USSR subsidies to Cuba (not a strawman), which is a fair point. I just pointed out that the US supported it's pet governments as well, and contrasted the USSR's approach with the USA's.

Ever read that book 'The Ugly American' back in the day? Great read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by crusso on Thursday April 03, 2014 @01:33PM (#7524498)
Apparently you want to disagree with my point

Jeez, another straw man. Are they really necessary?

Actually I do think that Cuba has been tragically mishandled by the US. I would have thought that trading with them and being a good example of Freedom for them would have been much better than trying to punish the dictators with perpetual embargo.

That said, I sympathize with Cuban refugees who are furious with the mistreatment of dissidents and want the US government to continue a hard line against Cuba.

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by jbooth on Thursday April 03, 2014 @01:39PM (#7524553)
It's pretty rare for someone to come in pointing out flaws in an argument they agree with.

You say that you did agree with me, so my apologies for attributing that view to you.

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by morgante on Thursday April 03, 2014 @10:05AM (#7522842)
Agreed. I definitely don't think we've always had the best policies on Cuba, and also am not entirely convinced Cuba is itself the best target of this sort of effort.

But regardless I think the tactics themselves are commendable. Speech, not guns.

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by BgSpnnrs on Thursday April 03, 2014 @10:16AM (#7522917)
I think a more commendable tactic would be to not stick their oar into sovereign state's business with a mind to ruin their systems of government. I suppose not killing people is commendable, but it is pretty low bar for moral behaviour.
Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by bayesianhorse on Thursday April 03, 2014 @11:44AM (#7523602)
If you believe in democracy, you can't believe in any "moral right" or legitimacy of a non-democratic government. Castro, Assad, Putin, neither of them has a moral right to run their countries, as only a freely elected government in a human-rights respecting state can have legitimacy.

That doesn't mean these leaders don't have "a claim" to power, or that you necessarily have to actively start deposing them.

Yet the only reason a democratic government does not depose an antidemocratic government is if it can't do so. And the latter is true for almost all situations. It stops to be true when there is a specific oportunity to improve the situation.

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by gclaramunt on Thursday April 03, 2014 @12:58PM (#7524162)
But you need to be careful to discern what's """real""" and what's propaganda.

From the outside, I can also paint a bleak picture of US election process (vote fraud, electoral college, gerrymandering) and if I select the correct news, the US have a presidency bordering on dictatorship that's bent on taking basic rights from the population, and a repressive police force.

Besides, the qualification of "human-rights respecting state" might be too much if you consider recent (and not so recent) history.

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by bayesianhorse on Thursday April 03, 2014 @01:37PM (#7524536)
No democracy ever has been perfect. But You need to apply some serious distortion if you want to say the US is less democratic than Russia. At the very least you have to ignore that there is no opposition in Russia, virtually no dissenting media, virtually no investigative journalism and absolutely legendary corruption.

You also need to focus very specifically on "repressive police force", which is easier to do in the US, where the press will hunt down these incidences like sharks will hunt blood in the water.

Transparency actually hurts the democratic image of the US, whereas Russia won't ever have these kinds of public scandals...

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by gclaramunt on Friday April 04, 2014 @10:21AM (#7531555)
I never claimed that, for sure IMHO a good indication of a healthy democracy is presidency turnaround. But if you want to give the rights for state to intervene in the matters of another, you have to thread VERY carefully: "bring democracy to Irak" didn't work very well and the actual intentions were transparently different. tl, dr: separating a state's geopolitical interests from "helping democracy in other places" is very hard
Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by bayesianhorse on Saturday April 05, 2014 @02:56AM (#7536222)
The Iraq War wasn't about installing democracy. After 9/11 the US was in a shocked, irrational state of mind. I would hope other nations would behave differently given the same situation and power, but I have my doubts about that also.

There was a shortage of enemies to punish, so Saddam Hussein was the next best villain. After all, he did not only have weapons of mass destruction previously, but also used them.

I actually live in a country where regime change worked emphatically well (Germany). I can't recall any such "regime change" project though were the major intent was to install democracy. In Iraq it was the WMD pretense and a diffuse sense of retaliation. In Libya it was to stop an army from shelling civilian living quarters. Mostly the intention is "just stop killing people, dammit!" And it actually works. You can never say for sure, but for example if Syria is any indication, it worked in Libya. While there are tons of problems in Syria, continued shelling and bombing of civilians isn't one of them any more.

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by bayesianhorse on Saturday April 05, 2014 @09:22AM (#7536990)
I actually meant Libya in the last sentence. Sorry. Shelling and Bombing is very much a reality there now.
Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by morgante on Thursday April 03, 2014 @03:45PM (#7525772)
I'd be the first to admit that the US isn't perfect, but we're certainly doing better at democracy than Cuba.

When it comes down to it, in Cuba there's one and only one candidate for president. That's not distortion, and that's not democracy.

Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by gclaramunt on Friday April 04, 2014 @10:24AM (#7531565)
Sure, but claims of moral authority to intervene are pretty weak.
Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by noahl on Thursday April 03, 2014 @11:32AM (#7523507)
I realize this may have been an offhand remark in your post, but your description of North Korea as pharaonic is very interesting and something I hadn't thought about before. Do you have any sources comparing North Korea with the government of ancient Egypt, or is that just a comment on the country being built around one person?
Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by jbooth on Thursday April 03, 2014 @04:57PM (#7526591)
Just the whole cult of personality, near-godhood thing.
Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by davidw on Thursday April 03, 2014 @10:08AM (#7522857)
Vietnam is too, in name, but is similar to China, from what I understand. Laos is communist is well, IIRC.
Re:US Secretly Built 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest by dublinben on Thursday April 03, 2014 @10:26AM (#7523004)
Vietnam and Laos are socialist countries, not communist by any means.