Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy

Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by maaku on Monday March 24, 2014 @09:38PM (#7463167)

> The right to secede is in the American constitution from its very beginning. Any State in the US can decide to become independent if their population really wants to. Whether it makes sense is another story, but it certainly would not regarded as illegitimate.

I'm pretty sure Lincoln would argue with you there.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by ekianjo on Monday March 24, 2014 @09:46PM (#7463207)

As I said below in another comment, Lincoln did not recognize the Right to secede, but that was heavily debated at the time of the Civil War (and still is). War does not make things Right by itself - it's just like forcing your view with a gun.

EDIT: this is directly from the Declaration of Independence:

> whenever any form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government

Note the any form of government.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by jordanb on Monday March 24, 2014 @09:53PM (#7463246)

The Civil War established the precedent that if a state wants to leave the Union it's going to have to fight its way out.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by jessaustin on Monday March 24, 2014 @10:13PM (#7463331)

Is it a "precedent" if it happened once, 150 years ago? No current USA general would send troops against any area of the USA that held a proper referendum to secede. If one did, few current USA soldiers would follow such unlawful orders. We're more civilized than that, now.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by saalweachter on Monday March 24, 2014 @10:40PM (#7463454)

I don't know, I think the opening of the Civil War could be replayed quite accurately in the modern-day America. The opening shots of the Civil War weren't Lincoln's troops firing on civilians in a random Rebel town, it was Rebel troops firing on a Union fortification which refused to evacuate.

I think this is exactly what would happen in the modern day.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by jessaustin on Monday March 24, 2014 @10:54PM (#7463514)

"Proper" referendums don't include shooting. Certainly, violence against a military installation will be met with overwhelming violence in return. That's why we'll hold a referendum: to avoid all that. If the soldiers want to hang out in their base that happens to be stuck in the middle of Lesser Midwesternia, that's cool. If they get bored and go home, that will be cool too.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by ekianjo on Monday March 24, 2014 @11:09PM (#7463567)

I'm not sure if it's a question of how civilized people are, but I get the feeling that the key reason why a certain number of people do not want Gun Control in the US, is precisely because they want to have access to weapons and resist, should the Federal Government turn tyrannic one day.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by jessaustin on Tuesday March 25, 2014 @07:01PM (#7469925)

Yeah I've heard this explanation as well. It calls to mind Schneier's admonition against "movie plot threats". The reason to have firearms is not to counter any specific threat. We arm ourselves, rather, in order to respond effectively to a wide variety of potential situations. Among those, the "rogue federal government" threat isn't more than a rounding error, in the USA, for the foreseeable future.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by mpyne on Monday March 24, 2014 @10:12PM (#7463324)

Or at the very least, not do so unilaterally. It's possible to imagine adopting something like the Constitutional amendment procedures to allow the nation to "cast off" a state that wished to be independent.

But what is not going to happen is that a state gets to take it's ball and go home just because the nation had the sheer audacity to vote for the wrong President.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by jessaustin on Monday March 24, 2014 @10:59PM (#7463534)

...the wrong President.

Which one are we talking about? Frankly, all the ones I've had the misfortune of living through, blur together for me. It's not like any of them have had any different policies. How could they, possibly?

If any area secedes, it might be because of "The President", but it won't be due to any particular one.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by saalweachter on Monday March 24, 2014 @11:44PM (#7463689)

I believe this is a reference to Lincoln; the election of 1860 is frequently cited as one of the triggers for the secession of South Carolina shortly thereafter.

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Re:Venice votes 89% to secede from Italy by mpyne on Monday March 24, 2014 @10:43PM (#7463467)

I think you skipped over the part where the government also had to be "destructive of the ends for which it was established".

I.e. not mere "wah wah the government raised my taxes" but actually despotic, as Jefferson explains in the rest of the Declaration of Independence.

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