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Re:Moto 360 by w1ntermute on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @03:32PM (#7424393)
Apple is more a fashion company than a tech company. Those who buy and use its products are primarily concerned with advertising the fact that they use Apple products - conspicuous consumption. It's no different from how Gucci or Prada owners make sure to prominently display the brand of their handbag when they are in public. It's a simple form of signaling your identity, that you belong to a particular group.

This is also why Apple's profit margins are sky high. Consumer electronics is an industry with razor thin margins, but with fashion, the sky is the limit (given that you can effectively manipulate the minds of consumers, which Apple is excellent at). An iDevice cannot be commoditized, no matter how hard Apple's competitors try.

Re:Moto 360 by psychometry on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @03:58PM (#7424590)
Either you're a troll or you're delusional. Which is it?

>Apple is more a fashion company than a tech company.

Not even remotely accurate for possible definitions of either of those terms.

>Those who buy and use its products are primarily concerned with advertising the fact that they use Apple products - conspicuous consumption.

Oh really? You don't think it has anything to do with their excellent track record of hardware design, software design, reliability and usability?

>It's no different from how Gucci or Prada owners make sure to prominently display the brand of their handbag when they are in public.

Yes, because Dell and HP laptops are completely devoid of physical branding...

>It's a simple form of signaling your identity, that you belong to a particular group.

Or it's because Apple products let productive people be productive.

Re:Moto 360 by tripzilch on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @05:14AM (#7427440)
> You don't think it has anything to do with their excellent track record of hardware design, software design, reliability and usability?

Of course. It has to do with Apple's branding of "hardware design, software design, reliability and usability".

Just like G-Star advertises their clothing as "raw", while their jeans are actually quite flimsy and rip or tear easily.

Sure, they look pretty and well-fitted. Just like I would recommend my grandmother an iPad because I know it's well-designed and she'd have less trouble using it.

> >It's no different from how Gucci or Prada owners make sure to prominently display the brand of their handbag when they are in public.

> Yes, because Dell and HP laptops are completely devoid of physical branding...

You're proving his point here: It's not like other brands of handbags (or shoes) are completely devoid of physical branding either. Yet it's not like their owners are even aware of its brand, half the time.

In this context I'd sooner compare Apple products to Nike shoes, rather than the fashion "I have money to spend" signalling Gucci/Prada handbags.

Come on, the evolution of "brands as lifestyle + identity" has been around for at least 30 years now. You should know a thing or two about how it works. It's not really a disputed theory.

And you can't seriously deny that Apple isn't fighting along in the Big Brand mindshare arena just as much as Coca-Cola, Nike, Red Bull and Calvin Klein, in a sense that Dell, Asus or Lenovo are very much not. A quick litmus-test is whether they have a significant brand-identity that can be separated from their products (sometimes even more prominent than their actual core product, especially in the case of Coca-Cola or Red Bull).

> >It's a simple form of signaling your identity, that you belong to a particular group.

> Or it's because Apple products let productive people be productive.

See what you just did? Put Apple product users in the group of "productive people being productive"? :) Would you ever say something as generic about a Lenovo laptop? (which has excellent hardware and lets productive people be very productive) That's because Apple is a brand identity, over just being a brand of laptops. As if they're charged with a kind of "soul".

You don't have to consider it a bad thing, but I think it's important to at least be aware of these very real differences, because they do influence the way people act, behave and feel about their stuff. And it's nothing new, and it's nothing you can or should prevent, everyone is affected by these ideas to some extent, which is again why it's so important to be aware of it. Just don't deny it.

Re:Moto 360 by makomk on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @09:14AM (#7428384)
Exactly! Discussions on HN (and elsewhere) have been full of Apple users bemoaning problems that, if they happened on Android, would be held up as proof that it was inherently crap. Because Apple have successfully branded themselves as the usable, well-designed option these issues get treated as a temporary aberration - even though from what I can tell they've always been the norm for Apple.
Re:Moto 360 by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @05:42PM (#7425209)
He always makes this same stale argument when Apple is mentioned. Check his comment hostory.
Re:Moto 360 by swamp40 on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @05:51PM (#7425282)
I think you both are describing different parts of the same elephant.
Re:Moto 360 by edanm on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @03:52PM (#7424546)
"Those who buy and use its products are primarily concerned with advertising the fact that they use Apple products - conspicuous consumption."

Yeah, you're going to need at least some form of evidence for that claim.

Needless to say, I disagree that that's the reason I use a Mac.

Re:Moto 360 by droopyEyelids on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @04:40PM (#7424836)
I know. In the tech field my macbook is embarrassingly generic.

It feels weird to know that it cost more than many people's cars, but if you work in the privileged person startup bubble it's a weak shibboleth, not a luxury item that draws attention.

Re:Moto 360 by pm90 on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @06:18PM (#7425447)
>it cost more than many people's cars,

sorry, what? I thought macboook cost $2-3k? Is that how much a car costs in your country?

Re:Moto 360 by gavinflud on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @06:40PM (#7425555)
My first car cost me €1000. My latest car that I bought in November cost just north of €3000.
Re:Moto 360 by kayoone on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @06:38PM (#7425548)
many people are driving <3k beater cars, maybe thats what he is referring too.
Re:Moto 360 by piyush_soni on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @09:49PM (#7426359)
Some of my friends are driving used cars which range from $1200 to $1700.
Re:Moto 360 by factotvm on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @03:56PM (#7424569)
I choose Apple because I want good hardware with a *nix operating system. End of story. Show me an alternative, and you'll pique my interest. In the meantime, you should keep your ridiculous comments about conspicuous consumption to yourself.
Re:Moto 360 by xmonkee on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @02:42AM (#7427141)
Goddamn this. I have been a linuxer all my life but getting older somehow really makes patching drivers all the time quite unattractive. Bought my first mac this year... good decision.
Re:Moto 360 by krrrh on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @09:19AM (#7428413)
Amen. It was a bit of a compromise having to deal with mac ports or fink for so long, but since homebrew became so usable as a package manager a couple if years ago, the argument has only gotten stronger.
Re:Moto 360 by Touche on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @03:04PM (#7430920)
You seriously have had to regularly patch drivers?
Re:Moto 360 by lewaldman on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @07:05PM (#7425685)
Lenovo Series W + Linux?
Re:Moto 360 by megablast on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @08:33PM (#7426098)
Yes, there are other options.
Re:Moto 360 by jey on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @04:21PM (#7424731)
No, what's incredible is that they're simultaneously a tech company and a fashion company. Perhaps it would be most accurate to say they are a design company in the consumer electronics market. Calling them a "design-oriented company" is inclusive of their multiple facets, including usability, fashion, and performance.
Re:Moto 360 by tripzilch on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @05:19AM (#7427455)
And it's incredible that Coca-Cola is simultaneously mass-producing chemical sludge, selling it to the masses and is a fashion company!
Re:Moto 360 by knowaveragejoe on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @03:50PM (#7424536)
The reason Apple laptops are so popular is hardly that they are a status symbol and more the fact that they're so damn comfortable to use. I agree about other Apple products, however.
Re:Moto 360 by tripzilch on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @05:27AM (#7427478)
People say (or said) the same about Nike shoes and Levis jeans. It's not the point. Yes they are high quality, but Wintermute wasn't commenting on that fact, the point is the brand identity of "Apple is high quality and comfortable to use", it's the first part where it says Apple Apple Apple.

I am wearing a pair of very cheap no-brand jeans, they are extremely durable and comfortable (the label also ironically reads "Unsigned", which I admit made me smile a bit, but it's not a brand, in a few years that store chain (Scapino) will have different labels, and nobody will notice one bit). I'm not going around saying "Unsigned has great durable comfy jeans"--also because they're not, extremely varying quality, you just have to try on at least 5 different ones that are ostensibly the same size (which they are also not). They're cheap though and this makes me very happy with them :)

Re:Moto 360 by knowaveragejoe on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @08:28PM (#7432960)
When I say that Apple laptops are damn comfortable, it has nothing to do with the brand. I can't speak for other people though. If Sony were making these, I'd own a Sony. But the fact of the matter is that it is Apple that has the lion's share of the laptop market because they've got a killer combination of hardware and software(being a closed platform and all). They've sunk untold amounts of money into ergonomics, the "little things", and it's paid off with a superior laptop experience. If you ever sit on a couch with a laptop all day, you'd quickly notice the difference between an Apple laptop and most OEM offerings out there. That's not to say that some OEMs aren't getting pretty close though. I have my eye on the Lenovo X1 Carbon lineup, maybe next year they'll have something superior at a better price point.
Re:Moto 360 by tluyben2 on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @04:19PM (#7424716)
I'll say it again; please advice me what non-Apple laptop to buy which can compete with my 11 inch Air. I tried many and all are more expensive than my 'status fashion Air' and they all feel/work like crap compared. Wobbly/shaky and expensive. But tell me what is better for the same price, I'll get one tomorrow and let's see if what kind of fashion we are talking about.
Re:Moto 360 by TimJRobinson on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @10:03PM (#7426402)
I quite like my vaio z 13" though they've stopped selling them now I believe. Higher spec than the best airs, lighter too and feels great to work on http://youtu.be/OWkG6wVWGds
Re:Moto 360 by lemieux on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @11:04PM (#7426582)
I must say that my Dell XPS 13 is a pretty good machine for development. I can take it anywhere without any problems. Sure it is 13", but I can go below 13".

On the plus side, it has a Ubuntu logo on it instead of that crappy Windows logo.

Re:Moto 360 by mongol on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @04:23PM (#7424747)
Lenovo Carbon? Maybe it is bigger
Re:Moto 360 by tluyben2 on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @05:54PM (#7425296)
I love how the X1 feels/looks, but 14 inch is too large. I find 13 inch actually on the big side. 10-12 inch for a laptop is what I consider perfect. But yes, good one; the X1 is a great machine. So we have one contender :)
Re:Moto 360 by commandar on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @10:42PM (#7426522)
The Lenovo Yoga line is pretty great in general. I've been eyeing them pretty hard recently.
Re:Moto 360 by tluyben2 on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @04:59AM (#7427414)
I eyed them a while ago, but read a bunch of not very favourable reviews; anyone have hands-on experience for at least a month?
Re:Moto 360 by Aeolus98 on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @10:53AM (#7428958)
I'm typing this on the top spec Yoga 2 Pro, it's amazing. The main complaints from reviewers were as follows; - yellow tint on screen - Flimsy hinge - low battery life - backlight bleed

I'll address them in order. 1. there was a marked discoloration when i saw pictures on the forums, and i almost returned it due to bing scared. When i got it, nothing. Absolutely nothing, though it looked a bit over saturated, which i kinda like on a non-workstation device.

2. The flimsy hinge is not a problem, end of story. Its stiffer than a MBA or MBP,m and only wobbles significantly if you tap it real hard.

3. Battery life is a problem, but if you're like me, i use it in multiple short spurts, coupled with a few long ones. It lasts all day, and while i do wish for a bit more, as for waht it is, it's good. Not great, but good.

4. No backlight bleed, nuff' said.

Furthermore i have found myself using the touchscreen far more than i anticipated. It's hands down, IMHO, the best laptop availible today thats an ultraportable. Go get one.

Re:Moto 360 by SomeoneWeird on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @05:15PM (#7425042)
The 2012(3?) X1 is lighter than the latest mba
Re:Moto 360 by scott_karana on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @02:44AM (#7427144)
I was given a new Macbook Air for work. My primary history with good laptops is the IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad lineup.

I don't parade around with the laptop: it's a desk job, with as few dashes over to the datacentre as possible. I work in a highly diverse Windows/Mac/Linux environment.

I've been very satisfied with it, except for the slight lack of ports. The speed, solid/useful construction, 16:10 screen, battery life, reasonable OS, et cetera, all suit me well. A Macbook Pro, which has lots more ports and a better screen besides, would likely satisfy me 100%.

The extremely similar Lenovo X1 Carbon that I also use in the office is not unfortunately quite as enjoyable, though it's equally utilitarian. The price-point is virtually identical, at least with how we specced them. I had had high hopes for it, because I was considering one to replace my X220.

At what point is fashion involved in this equation? Where is the bragging? Where is the fanboyism?

Re:Moto 360 by Camillo on Tuesday March 18, 2014 @09:46PM (#7426350)
I'm just going to leave this here: https://twitter.com/asymco/status/396253597551570944
Re:Moto 360 by theon144 on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @01:51AM (#7427044)
I'm not sure what's the informational value of absolute numbers in this case. It might come out with the same results, but both Microsoft and Samsung have a hell lot more to advertise.
Re:Moto 360 by andyhmltn on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @06:46AM (#7427759)
>Apple is more a fashion company than a tech company

That's completely false. They make good looking products sure but they aren't just pretty little bricks.