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Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by jdreaver on Sunday March 02, 2014 @02:24PM (#7330355)
I've become extremely jaded against intellectual property recently. Far too often, IP law is used to for long, drawn out legal battles that do nothing to help society, while costing the tax payers a ton of money.

Property is a way to deal with scarcity. Two people cannot simultaneously wear a shirt, for example, so one of them "owns" the shirt. Two people cannot both drive a car to different locations at the same time, so one person "owns" the car. Of course, you can lend your shirt or car to someone else, but the final say as to how those two resources are used belongs to the owner.

The product of intellectual labor, using this scarcity condition, cannot be considered someone's property. The only tangential relationship IP has to property is that one person uses force, namely, the government, to prevent others from using "their" idea for economic gain. This scarcity is artificial because absent that threat of force, everyone would be able to use the idea freely. Physical goods are subject to scarcity as a consequence of physical law; a car acn't be in my driveway and your driveway at the same time. (This argument applies directly to patents and copyrights, but also to trademarks in that a word or phrase can't be used to market something for economic gain.)

Besides the moral argument, which I know some people don't care about (it is subjective, of course), there is a utilitarian argument. Some act as if, without IP law, no one would be willing to create new ideas; it's as if the only incentive for creation is economic gain from a government-granted monopoly on an idea. Just take a look at the news to see that IP law is more commonly associated with patent trolls and corporate legal battles than protecting Joe Inventor's new idea.

At the very least, I wish people would stop comparing downloading movies and music from the internet as stealing. If I steal your car, you can't use it. If I "steal" a song from the record label by copying the exact sequence of bytes that represent a song from my buddy's hard drive to my hard drive, we can both still listen to the song. I understand that some people support the song creator's claim to the song as "property," in the form of IP. However, even then, there has to be a middle ground between copying against the wishes of the song's creator, and theft in the eyes of the law.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by schiffern on Sunday March 02, 2014 @04:32PM (#7330860)
"It has been pretended by some, (and in England especially,) that inventors have a natural and exclusive right to their inventions, and not merely for their own lives, but inheritable to their heirs.

But while it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from nature at all, it would be singular to admit a natural and even an hereditary right to inventors. It is agreed by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no individual has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land, for instance. By an universal law, indeed, whatever, whether fixed or movable, belongs to all men equally and in common, is the property for the moment of him who occupies it, but when he relinquishes the occupation, the property goes with it.

Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.

That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.

Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from anybody.

Accordingly, it is a fact, as far as I am informed, that England was, until we copied her, the only country on earth which ever, by a general law, gave a legal right to the exclusive use of an idea. In some other countries it is sometimes done, in a great case, and by a special and personal act, but, generally speaking, other nations have thought that these monopolies produce more embarrassment than advantage to society; and it may be observed that the nations which refuse monopolies of invention, are as fruitful as England in new and useful devices."

— Thomas Jefferson, 1813-08-13

http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-06-02-03...

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by lukifer on Sunday March 02, 2014 @05:06PM (#7330969)
I had never read that before, thank you. It is strange how readily accepted it is that ideas belong to their inventors by natural law, given that the Constitution explicitly states that copyrights and patents are "for limited Times" and "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts" (i.e., primarily for social benefit). I think people like to fantasize about the One Great Idea that will make them rich, and that fantasy has become part of our cultural narrative.

Also relevant, of course: how often an idea doesn't come to just one person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by biehl on Sunday March 02, 2014 @02:44PM (#7330445)
"You wouldn't [download] a car..."

Why, yes - yes I most definitely would.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by dredmorbius on Sunday March 02, 2014 @07:29PM (#7331382)
Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by jessaustin on Sunday March 02, 2014 @03:41PM (#7330663)
Has GP post changed? I don't find that statement within it.
Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by jdreaver on Sunday March 02, 2014 @03:44PM (#7330677)
That quote was never in the post. biehl is just referencing this: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/piracy-its-a-crime
Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by biehl on Sunday March 02, 2014 @05:08PM (#7330974)
Exactly. It's a lovely meme.
Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by mattkevan on Sunday March 02, 2014 @06:57PM (#7331303)
You wouldn't steal a policeman's helmet...

http://youtu.be/ALZZx1xmAzg

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by nefreat on Sunday March 02, 2014 @04:00PM (#7330739)
There is a great book available for free about the topic: Against Intellectual Monopoly[1] which does a great job detailing how IP is actually destructive to innovation and hurts society as a whole. The authors cover many topics from pharma to tech.

1. http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/intellectual/against.h...

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by dnautics on Sunday March 02, 2014 @04:15PM (#7330800)
Just FYI - what you're talking about in rivalrousness not scarcity.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110709/10490515032/cultu...

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by sillysaurus3 on Sunday March 02, 2014 @03:15PM (#7330584)
At the very least, I wish people would stop comparing downloading movies and music from the internet as stealing.

Games released via Steam have shown evidence that when a singleplayer game is unavailable as a torrent for free, then people will pay for it. The counterargument to this is that most people who torrent wouldn't pay for it anyway. But I assert that there is a third class of people: those who first check to see if it's available for free, and if not, pay for it. Whether these people constitute a significant portion of revenue is an open question, but it's hard to classify their actions from a moral standpoint as something other than stealing.

The closest classification other than "stealing" would probably be "sampling." I've often been frustrated at an inability to try out a certain kind of dev tool before buying it outright, and their free version is usually missing features which I really need to test. But there needs to be a large-scale study as to whether people really behave this way normally, or if they just take what they can get for free. Unfortunately it's difficult to find an unbiased source of funding for such a study, so the resulting research paper would probably be slanted in one moral direction or the other instead of presenting the raw data.

It's not an easy question to answer. I think technological capabilities will decide how companies will behave, because those who don't accept reality will go out of business.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by DanBC on Sunday March 02, 2014 @03:23PM (#7330606)
> Games released via Steam have shown evidence that when a singleplayer game is unavailable as a torrent for free, then people will pay for it. The counterargument to this is that most people who torrent wouldn't pay for it anyway. But I assert that there is a third class of people: those who first check to see if it's available for free, and if not, pay for it.

What about the fourth classification of people who search for a way to buy something and who torrent it when it's not available?

Don't forget the weird restrictions placed on regional DVDs by the industry, and the laws that prevent me from converting my player to a multiregion device.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by lostlogin on Sunday March 02, 2014 @05:42PM (#7331089)
I'll add a 5th class. Those who pay, can't use the crap they get for some reason, so torrent a functional version. I fit this category often. Got out a Sopranos series. DVDs wouldn't play over airplay for some DRM reason, and torrenting was quicker than ripping. Another time it was getting a Windows install onto a MacBook Air was so painful that a torrent was easier than some horrid workaround that involved a 4 hour drive to get a disc and a disc drive as no legal method of getting a download was available (from memory it was Widows 7 about a year and a half ago, but have struck the issue of having no legal download available with legacy Widows versions at other times too).
Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by nate_meurer on Sunday March 02, 2014 @03:30PM (#7330630)
> "...it's hard to classify their actions from a moral standpoint as something other than stealing."

It's not hard. A critical aspect of property theft is the deprivation of property experienced by the victim. IP "theft" lacks this aspect entirely. Using the term in this way makes you no better than the CEO of Turner Broadcasting who claims that not watching advertisements constitutes "stealing" of TV.

Call it "sampling" or "counterfeiting" if you want, but "theft" is misapplication of a term with an otherwise well-established definition.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by sillysaurus3 on Sunday March 02, 2014 @03:40PM (#7330658)
Could it be a confusion of definition? Some would define stealing as, "You have no right to be enjoying my work unless you have paid me what I ask. It's your right to choose not to pay me and look for a different product."
Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by nate_meurer on Sunday March 02, 2014 @04:44PM (#7330902)
Sure, you can make up your own definitions for words as much as you want. If you want, you can conflate the definitions of all kinds of criminal labels -- theft, rape, terrorism[1], etc. It's a time-honored tactic of those who seek to demagogue positions they oppose. But it makes a mockery of the serious crimes that those terms describe, and it does nothing to help you effectively communicate your own point of view.

[1] - Note that there is currently a concerted effort by many to connect IP infringement to "terrorism".

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by mitchty on Sunday March 02, 2014 @04:45PM (#7330904)
It could be, but the problem there is its a different concept being implemented as the same english word stealing.

One has a legal definition implying loss of a tangible good, the other a rather different definition implying you haven't paid to use a thing.

Both are correct grammatically, but they aren't the same thing in the end.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by Filligree on Sunday March 02, 2014 @03:21PM (#7330601)
I take a different approach:

I check if it's available on Steam, or some other non-horrible online service. If it is, I buy it. Otherwise... well, you can probably guess.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by belorn on Sunday March 02, 2014 @10:30PM (#7331882)
> "...it's hard to classify their actions from a moral standpoint as something other than stealing."

Once copyright was a deal in which my tax money was used to protect a limited monopoly, and in return I could use the art after the monopoly expired. Now it is corrupted so that once the time has expired, the written language is not commonly understandable. The recorded music and video will have fully deteriorated in their stored medium. The games and software won't run.

It is thus hard to classify their actions from a moral standpoint as something other than stealing. They steal my money to support a stolen copyright deal, and I do not accept it. The deal should be ignored and the thieves should be held responsible for their actions.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by onli on Sunday March 02, 2014 @03:48PM (#7330698)
> Games released via Steam have shown evidence that when a singleplayer game is unavailable as a torrent for free, then people will pay for it.

When? Where? To my knowledge, no such study or data in favor of that thesis exist. For music I know of a counter-study to such statements: http://www.scribd.com/doc/131005609/JRC79605, which concludes with

According to our results, a 10% increase inclicks on legal streaming websites lead to up to a 0.7% increase in clicks on legal digital purchases websites

and

Essentially these papers show that illegal music downloads have little or no effect on legal digital sales.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by dhoulb on Sunday March 02, 2014 @09:48PM (#7331769)
Wrong way round.

You want to know if clicks on illegal sources have an effect on legal sources.

Not if clicks on legal sources have an effect on illegal sources.

Yes, it's important.

No, they're not the same.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by onli on Monday March 03, 2014 @05:33AM (#7333001)
> Not if clicks on legal sources have an effect on illegal sources.

But that is not what the study is about?

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by fnordfnordfnord on Sunday March 02, 2014 @05:49PM (#7331117)
There is another group of people, those who will try to pay for goods, and after failing to find a reasonable way to do that, acquire them through shadier channels.
Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by akiselev on Sunday March 02, 2014 @11:49PM (#7332103)
No, I think that means that the thieves are those who made it available for that third group of people.
Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by Perdition on Sunday March 02, 2014 @07:37PM (#7331416)
>it's hard to classify their actions from a moral standpoint as something other than stealing.

It is easy. In those cases the owner hasn't been deprived of anything but potential profit. If there was a competing game some of the potential pirates might buy that instead, they might watch TV or read a book instead of playing a game. It is just competition.

I find it ridiculous that under current law it is illegal to make unauthorised copies of games, but perfectly legal to make a clone/reimplementation. Both can deprive the original author of potential profit.

Of course this is why some of the big players in the IP industry have been muttering about "patents" on creative works.

Re:Inventor stumped by 43-year patent delay by aaronetz on Sunday March 02, 2014 @07:47PM (#7331449)
All this reminds me of a short story I once read, Melancholy Elephants[1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melancholy_Elephants