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Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by jblow on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @12:57PM (#7025143)
I am glad this paper has been written, but already by page 3 there are serious problems with it.

For example: It is an easily observable phenomenon (e.g. by anyone who meditates) that you can be conscious without remembering anything. In other words, consciousness is independent of something like memory.

Yet Max's list on page 3 has stuff like "independence", "utility", "integration" which have nothing to do with observations of what consciousness is actually like. Rather, they are more like high-level ideas of what human beings are like.

But we don't need to explain human beings (complex biological organisms that walk around and do stuff). Science has got that covered already, at least kind of. So if you are going to clearly think about consciousness, you need to factor out what consciousness really is and look at the properties of that.

This is supposed to be a foundational principle of science: that your hypotheses are attempts to explain things that are actually observed. The first step is to observe things carefully! You don't just go making up hypotheses.

So it's a giant red flag any time a scientist writes a paper about consciousness where they conflate it with memory in some way (which is almost every time). It's a red flag because it indicates that the scientist has not actually spent any time observing consciousness, because they aren't noticing things that are obvious to people who have done that.

(You might think that because we are all walking around conscious every day, there would be no need to observe consciousness, but this isn't true. We walk around in a space governed by Newtonian physics, but it took until Newton to figure out this thing called inertia and that a frictional force is required to make things stop, etc, because if you don't look carefully and make careful measurements, most of the everyday world doesn't appear that way at all. Same thing with consciousness.)

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by mullingitover on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:08PM (#7025252)
> For example: It is an easily observable phenomenon (e.g. by anyone who meditates) that you can be conscious without remembering anything. In other words, consciousness is independent of something like memory.

If you're meditating, how do you know that you're meditating without having, at minimum, a working short-term memory? If meditating actually disabled your memory, wouldn't you immediately forget that you were meditating and stop?

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by jblow on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:39PM (#7025492)
It is not that meditating disables anything; rather, meditation consists in observing consciousness in a way that is orthogonal to these things. When meditating, sometimes (often!) you are remembering things, but sometimes you aren't. And in fact what you come to realize is that this is also true in daily life: there are many, many gaps during the day when you are not remembering or thinking about anything. According to your question, wouldn't you just immediately forget what you are doing and stop in the middle of your day? Well, no, you don't, and you can hypothesize as to why (unconscious processes or whatever) but the point is that unconscious processes can be explained without hypothesizing consciousness (isn't that like what a robot has?)

All I can say is, try meditating sometime and you will see. (I don't recommend mantra meditation, but rather something more like Vipassana or "mindfulness" or any meditation that is not about distracting your mind by keeping it busy).

When you become comfortable with meditation, you become very aware of what your consciousness is doing. You gain a palpable sense for the present moment. Once you have that, it makes a lot of these kinds of questions unnecessary (or at least the questions become very different in nature). If you don't have this taste for the present, then asking/answering questions like this is like trying to explain colors to a blind person. It just doesn't work because most of the questions are about things that don't really have anything to do with consciousness.

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by scarletham on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @02:18PM (#7025798)
I think you have a fundamentally flawed understanding of just how small a timeframe short term memory can apply to. As a commenter said below, your brain is constantly utilizing memory, whether or not you know it.

> the point is that unconscious processes can be explained without hypothesizing consciousness

This really doesn't make any sense, by the way.

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by wfn on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:21PM (#7025358)
Indeed. And as a general rule, I would personally not trust these kinds of intuitions and insights - the overall introspection framework/method is, in my opinion, not a very much reliable tool. (People who have been practicing meditation for a number of years would maybe not like to call that 'intuition' (but rather accumulated experience from a careful and long thinking process, etc.), but the point still stands, I think.)

To borrow Metzinger[1] et al.'s terminology, this internal model of what consciousness is may not be very transparent to us (much in the same way why we don't have good intuitions why/how it is that we have notions about solidity and classical (in one or other sense) mechanics (it is useful to have an image of a solid tree/obstacle when running through a forest while being chased by a tiger, and all that.) We may have some intuitions, but those intuitions may turn out to be wrong.)

[1]: A very interesting book I'm yet to read: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/being-no-one

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by nickmain on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @02:19PM (#7025799)
Working memory (the active feedback loops that constitute your current thinking) is subtly different from short-term memory. This is still an area of active research.

Working memory can hold a limited number of things (usually said to be 7), whereas short-term memory has a larger limit in capacity and time. These are both temporary systems that feed off each other and rely on the larger long-term memory to give meaning and context to the "symbols" they contain.

Everything is interconnected, so making definitive statements about any of this is hard.

(IANANeuroScientist but my work does Neuroscience research)

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by webwanderings on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:18PM (#7025335)
The ultimate of meditation is to stay in here-now, be present in a present. So technically and logically speaking, you don't need a memory in such state.
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by mej10 on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:22PM (#7025364)
Now the question is, do meditators just hallucinate a feeling that gets processed into a memory of having achieved such a state?
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by webwanderings on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:25PM (#7025387)
By hallucinate you mean, not knowing what/where you are or doing, in that particular moment? Then yes, one can use that word. The simplest analogy of here-now is when you are watching an exceptional movie (as per your taste) and you get lost in those moments of watching. The same phenomenon is apparent in observing other forms of arts (songs, paintings etc).

So, are such states hallucination? Every person (human being) knows for sure that they are real.

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by yarou on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @02:48PM (#7026024)
Do humans "hallucinate" what is in front of them? It's fairly well understood that our visual cortex is the product of evolution. So we will see things as they are meant to be seen, by our visual cortex. This is completely different from what is really there.
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by kordless on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:38PM (#7025483)
You can state intent all day long, but even while meditating your brain is keeping state. Reference breathing, heartbeat, intent, etc.

I believe meditation is pulling focus into the present moment, but I also believe that moment is far from discrete.

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by webwanderings on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:56PM (#7025615)
Well of course your brain is keeping a certain state, even while in complete meditation. So what is the point? It is not like reaching a certain meditative state would make you superior among others, or a super-human even. Many have suggested that people reaching such states eventually do return back, and for some, such states even dissipate eventually if they don't keep up with the practice.

Ultimately, the idea is that the state of 'here-now' (whether arrived through practice, observation or heck even induced through means of substance - though there are differences) is the state when You are not your mind anymore. So in that sense, looking at above suggestion about memory, I would simply ask: what is the need of a memory?

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by iandanforth on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:21PM (#7025359)
So it's a tautology? Not useful.
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by Florin_Andrei on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @02:21PM (#7025816)
There's no memory whatsoever in dreamless sleep, and yet you have no problem admitting to yourself that you've slept so many hours last night.
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by wfn on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @05:40PM (#7027346)
This isn't relevant / applicable / the same because dreamless sleep would not involve consciousness (in most any sense/definition of the word), whereas meditation would. So your example doesn't really say anything, in my opinion. Unless you had something else in mind?
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by Florin_Andrei on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @06:27PM (#7027610)
If you have no memories from dreamless sleep, how do you know it's an unconscious state?
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by wfn on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @07:01PM (#7027796)
That's an interesting point. One way to approach it would be to say that it is an unconscious state because of the very fact that one cannot recall it. But this is surely not necessarily correct (works given certain assumptions about the nature of consciousness), so I'm not sure. It still seems to be a somewhat orthogonal question to me, though. :)
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by jerf on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:50PM (#7025579)
I can't speak for meditation, but over the last couple of years I've noticed that as I'm going to sleep and my mind is sort of just running along that every so often I can actually catch myself losing my short-term memory. It's like somebody pushed the reset button on the internal monologue. It takes about 3 or 4 seconds.

(It's terrifying what your brain does in sleep....)

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by X4 on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @03:37PM (#7026407)
Feel the same. I doubt that it's 3-4 seconds, because I loose the sense of time too, but dunno about you. Hmm, isn't seconds sleep very similar to that too? I would even say that it's much more extreme. I can hang in-between reality and dream for minutes in the worst case, until I either wake-up unpleasantly or doze off.
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by jerf on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @08:57PM (#7028260)
I'm awake enough when it's happening that I don't think I'm in "sleep time" yet. It's actually a bit disturbing. I say this accounting for the fact that this is all pretty hard to tell about what time it is, but, part of the reason why I noticed it is that it seems to be happening much earlier than I'm used to.
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by enkephalin on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @01:22PM (#7025368)
i do actually forget that i'm meditating, for short periods. that's sort of my goal, come to think of it. those are the most rewarding moments of the experience.
Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by crystaln on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @02:10PM (#7025730)
> So it's a giant red flag any time a scientist writes a paper about consciousness where they conflate it with memory in some way (which is almost every time). It's a red flag because it indicates that the scientist has not actually spent any time observing consciousness, because they aren't noticing things that are obvious to people who have done that.

Give me a break. Would you mind sharing what makes you more qualified than the author to "observe consciousness" and come to conclusions regarding the requirement of memory? I'd say it's a "red flag" when a game designer on hacker news throws out unsubstantiated attacks on an extensive well-written rational analysis about the physical manifestation of consciousness by a prominent MIT physics professor and cosmologist.

Additionally, I think you are quite clearly wrong. Consciousness does require memory. It is not possible to observe, experience, or process without memory, all of which are required for the integration of consciousness. Even to perceive requires memory, since it requires the integration, filtering, and processing of large amounts data into consistent perception and a conscious interpretation thereof - none of which is instantaneous and all of which takes time, requiring memory.

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by X4 on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @03:46PM (#7026485)
>> Give me a break. […]what makes you more qualified than the author[…]

I had the exact same thought. It's understandable that people want to disagree, because it's not in their logical realm, or they find it's out of their scope of normal and accepted, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong at all.

When someone comes over that negative, to an author who has put so much effort into the paper. One would find it fair to have an equally professional, detailed and long answer. Imagine a time where everybody has the power to publicly "try to refute" your paper with a tweet, absolute horror.

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by mattheww on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @04:40PM (#7026912)
These off-base criticisms reflect the fact that commenter did not read the whole paper and likely did not even read the introduction, which ends on page 3, where he found "serious" problems.

For example, the paper nowhere conflates consciousness and memory. Instead, the paper repeats the suggestion that a requirement of consciousness may be the ability to process a substantial amount of information. This idea is related to the idea of memory, but it's not really the same.

The paper is not about describing the biological experience of consciousness at all. This paper asks the question: "Is there some way to understand from the Hamiltonian and density matrix of our universe that it should contain consciousness?"

Tegmark then proposes some criteria that are probably necessary for consciousness to arise and then presents some metrics for the various criteria and calculates those metrics for various conditions. The paper is really describing a framework for how consciousness can be considered in the context of a physical representation. The calculations should be relatively straight-forward to follow for anyone with a decent memory of their linear algebra class.

To put it another way: If you had a Hamiltonian and density matrix that described a universe that you thought contained consciousness, what kind of things would you calculate for that Hamiltonian and density matrix to try and find out if it did or didn't? This paper suggests some ways to think about this question.

So I don't understand why this comment spends so long talking about "observing consciousness."

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by joe_the_user on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @04:00PM (#7026590)
I am glad this paper has been written...

What is there to celebrate about half-baked philosophy dressed as science and published?

Philosophers and theologians have spent the last two thousand years not agreeing what consciousness is and there is no clear consensus now. That's not really surprising - all the seemingly "basic" qualities people perceive - say lightness, darkness, wetness or coldness, are very "high level" compared to what we know about the real states of matter

The argument that consciousness is a state of matter because consciousness is something we intuitively perceive is something of a throw-back to the "four elements of matter" thinking - the prescientific system where matter is organized by its perceived properties in contrast to any serious investigation of the causes of those perceived properties.

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by eric_cc on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @02:17PM (#7025791)
I am glad this comment has been written, but already by paragraph 2 there are serious problems with it.

> consciousness is independent of something like memory.

I'm not going to say you are completely wrong here but where is your proof?

Re:Consciousness as a State of Matter by scott_s on Wednesday January 08, 2014 @02:26PM (#7025855)
Whether you are conscious of your memory is independent of whether you are using memory.