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Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by barrkel on Thursday December 26, 2013 @02:55AM (#6965579)
Note that this display has no hardware scaling; if sent a signal that's less than the native resolution, it's displayed centred and unscaled. Last I checked, drivers for nVidia at least don't yet support cheap scaling for it. That means playing GPU-taxing games on it is unfeasible for the moment.

I also expect prices to come down, as 4K TV panels start to create economies of scale (even though the price isn't extortionate for what it is in the current market). The panel shouldn't always be a niche like 1920x1200 is. So I reckon this one is for early adopters.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by cma on Thursday December 26, 2013 @10:24AM (#6966496)
Yep, you can already get a 39" 4k TV that can serve as a monitor for $499:

http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-Digital-SE39UY04-39-Inch-Ultra/d...

But it can only do 30Hz at 4K due to its limted inputs. You can game on it at 1080p@60Hz (hopefully without any scaling issues since 4K has exactly 4 pixels for every 1080p pixel).

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by bhauer on Thursday December 26, 2013 @11:30AM (#6966736)
Indeed. If you are interested in prior discussion on using the Seiki television as a computer monitor, see the following thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6835521
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by lstamour on Friday December 27, 2013 @12:55AM (#6969553)
Thanks for the link and reference. Just today I picked it up for CA$499 from a TigerDirect.ca store just outside of Toronto. Very, very happy, though the only device I have at home that can run it at full 4K is a new US$299 Acer c720p Chromebook! Photo: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+LouisStAmour/posts/Fejys3in1S3
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by riobard on Thursday December 26, 2013 @11:04AM (#6966634)
I'm wondering if I don't play games, would 30Hz @ 4K be sufficient for web browsing, coding, and movies?
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by itsameta4 on Thursday December 26, 2013 @11:39AM (#6966758)
Most people can't tell the difference between 30 and 60Hz, except in certain situations. Most TV programs are filmed at 30Hz, and until very recently, most movies were filmed at 24Hz.

You may notice a little bit of stuttering during long, slow pans, but for everything else, it should work pretty well.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by ANTSANTS on Thursday December 26, 2013 @03:05PM (#6967770)
I didn't want to believe this, but the other day I watched the new Hobbit movie in 48fps with some friends and apparently I was the only one that noticed anything different.

The obvious difference in the scenarios you mentioned is interactivity. I find something charming about the 24hz look of traditional film (often even lower in animation, where "animating on twos or threes" can drop the effective framerate down to 12 or even 8 FPS), but I sure as hell wouldn't want to use a computer at 24FPS. Even outside of games, 120hz feels significantly better than 60hz just moving a mouse cursor around on a desktop.

I'm holding onto the idea that it's something that has to be pointed out to you before you really care, but beforehand there is still an unconscious negative effect. Say, you're talking about the steps you took to eliminate a frame of lag from a game, and it seems ridiculous and pointless to a layman, but then they turn around and complain that their game feels "unresponsive" or "floaty" ("I pressed the button and he didn't do anything!") The problem still affected them, they just didn't know what to attribute it to (or perhaps having not experienced, say, a PC FPS played on a CRT monitor, they don't have a frame of reference for how responsive a game should feel).

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by bkurtz13 on Thursday December 26, 2013 @04:45PM (#6968253)
The reason this works for movies and not computer games is simple. Movie cameras let in light in a fashion similar to your eye, and thus at 24 fps motion blur is perceived the same way you see a blur when waving your hand rapidly in front of your face. Games however are rendered one frame at a time, and each frame the positions of everything on the screen are updated with no blurring or interpolation between frames. Thus a higher framerate is needed to achieve a "smooth" motion effect.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by crwll on Friday December 27, 2013 @07:45AM (#6970420)
Motion blur is a very common effect used on games nowadays. Luckily it can usually be turned off.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by stephen_g on Thursday December 26, 2013 @08:11PM (#6968929)
Almost all movies are still filmed at 24fps.

The thing is, movies aren't shown at 24fps - they actually flash each frame on and off a few times to reduce flicker.

It used to be done with a multiple bladed shutter on film projectors, but I believe digital projectors and TVs can do the same thing (on the TV if you turn off that awful motion interpolation that they all have turned on by default for some reason).

But one thing movies don't typically have is a very fast moving mouse pointer on the screen all the time... The mouse, and fast scrolls on web pages and stuff will likely have issues at 30Hz.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by ChuckMcM on Thursday December 26, 2013 @12:26PM (#6966954)
As a long time Amiga user who had a 'flicker fixer' card I can assure you that some people can and do notice significant degradation of the monitor experience at 30hz. Now granted part of that was the fact that 30Hz interleaved had really annoying flicker on single pixel horizontal lines, but even the 'turn your head and it blinks' stuff was pretty annoying too.

I'd be interested to see this display in action (not quite interested enough to experiment with $500 though) to see how it affected my vision of things.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by barrkel on Thursday December 26, 2013 @12:51PM (#6967076)
There's a massive difference between a CRT at 30 Hz and an LCD at 30 Hz. A 30 Hz CRT is terrible in direct proportion to how bright it is, and it very visibly flickers. 60 Hz CRTs also visibly and annoyingly flicker with eye saccades, or if you wave your fingers in front of the screen. CRTs need to approach 75-85 Hz before they are all-day tolerable with white backgrounds.

LCDs have a continuous backlight and the liquid crystals need to change orientation to change frame. There's no flicker as long as they're showing the same frame. Here the flicker is noticeable as jerky motion, and is mostly just a problem for video, games, mouse cursor motion, smooth scrolling, etc.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by fallous on Thursday December 26, 2013 @01:35PM (#6967303)
I'm not sure if you're misremembering the Amiga flicker-fixer but the FF converted the 15KHz interlaced display of the Amiga to 30KHz (VGA style). It was the 15KHz interlace flickering that was noticeable, not the upgraded 30KHz signal from the FF.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by ChuckMcM on Thursday December 26, 2013 @02:03PM (#6967472)
I didn't write my comment clearly, with the FF it was not an issue, but without the FF the display in interlaced mode was painful. I had a long phosphor monitor which I used to mitigate that but until I got the FF it was an issue.

That said, the points above about the mechanics of LCD's being different enough that I might not object are reasonable. I've really not tried using a 30hz LCD display.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by rz2k on Thursday December 26, 2013 @03:48PM (#6967972)
It could be, but there's a very important caveat. The HDMI output from many computers with HDMI and Displayport/Thunderbolt are limited to 1920x1280 over the HDMI output.

If you look on eBay for QHD (2560x1440) monitors, the ones that include a Displayport input are about $100 more than the ones with only HDMI, because they can be used by so many more computers.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by cma on Thursday December 26, 2013 @01:09PM (#6967165)
You can test it out by running a regular monitor at 30Hz. I've tried 24Hz before and mousing was definitely too laggy/painful, but 30 might be enough.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by riobard on Thursday December 26, 2013 @11:19PM (#6969380)
Any idea how to force the monitor at 30Hz on OS X? The lowest I could set on my monitor is 50Hz.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by kev009 on Thursday December 26, 2013 @03:35AM (#6965648)
This is a color-calibrated professional display. IMO it's a great price, about the same as what name brand 30" 2560x1600 were 2 years ago. Compare to a white label IPS 2560x1600 and it still seems reasonable: http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=113&cp_id=11307&cs_id=...
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by asdfs on Thursday December 26, 2013 @04:40AM (#6965770)
>Last I checked, drivers for nVidia at least don't yet support cheap scaling for it.

Are you sure that's correct? I was under the impression that virtually all GPUs have hardware scalers that wouldn't harm performance.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by ANTSANTS on Thursday December 26, 2013 @02:43PM (#6967659)
Of course it's theoretically possible, he's saying that there isn't an option in the NVidia drivers to automatically scale up low-resolution display modes to a monitor's native resolution. Purely a software problem.

I dunno if that's true or not, but my aging ATI card definitely has an option for this, so I'd be kinda surprised if it was.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by justin66 on Thursday December 26, 2013 @03:24AM (#6965631)
> That means playing GPU-taxing games on it is unfeasible for the moment.

3.6 times as many pixels as a 1920x1200 display. The difference isn't all that profound. I would think that those games should run, since they tend to target a range of graphics features such that they can run on old and new hardware. And the kicker: you shouldn't need to turn on anti-aliasing with this monitor (although I don't know how much performance that saves you, it's certainly something).

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by barrkel on Thursday December 26, 2013 @03:41AM (#6965662)
I currently have a GTX 680, and generally buy the fastest single-chip graphics card available when I buy a new system. But I still generally don't enable anti-aliasing over 2x unless it's a very old game, because it still costs too much.

I like a solid 60fps. Any time I see a dropped frames, or lagginess in a big scene, I pop into the graphics options and start cutting away fidelity until I get back to smoothness. Many games, even 5+ years old, don't run 100% at 60 fps on highest detail on the 680. Almost all games these days are GPU limited, as they're tuned for consoles. Asking to pump out 4x the pixels isn't cheap.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by chongli on Thursday December 26, 2013 @01:37PM (#6967321)
I like a solid 60fps. Any time I see a dropped frames, or lagginess in a big scene, I pop into the graphics options and start cutting away fidelity until I get back to smoothness.

This is where Nvidia G-Sync technology will come in handily. It will allow a game to run at a variable frame rate without the graphics card being forced to send repeated frames so that the monitor can maintain 60hz. Instead, every frame rendered will be sent to the monitor as soon as it's available and the monitor will display it right away.

This will be doubly crucial for 4K displays, as otherwise it'll require far too much performance to maintain 60hz.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by justin66 on Thursday December 26, 2013 @10:56AM (#6966599)
I just assume that a lot of the gamers who would consider dropping $1300 for a monitor are the same ones who are using two, rather than just one, GPU. So there's always that.

> But I still generally don't enable anti-aliasing over 2x unless it's a very old game, because it still costs too much.

You probably won't need it at all with this monitor, so you'll hypothetically be able to get some performance back that way.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by barrkel on Thursday December 26, 2013 @12:40PM (#6967021)
It doesn't matter. Neither GTX 780 Ti 2-way SLI nor R9 290X 2-way crossfire are able to average 60fps on modern games at 4K HD, even games that are nearly a year old.

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gtx_780_ti_sli_geforce_...

And these cards are 600-700 USD each.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by justin66 on Thursday December 26, 2013 @03:34PM (#6967913)
If you find your experience completely ruined by frame rates ever dropping below 60fps, you're going to find most of the newest games kind of a bummer.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by barrkel on Friday December 27, 2013 @02:04AM (#6969723)
The experience isn't completely ruined, but immersion is affected. It adds the GPU limitation as another difficulty factor in the gameplay. In twitchy games, the moments of maximum screen chaos are simultaneously those where you need to react quickly, and you are less likely to be able to react quickly if you're dropping frames.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by voltagex_ on Thursday December 26, 2013 @05:03AM (#6965812)
>Many games, even 5+ years old, don't run 100% at 60 fps on highest detail on the 680

I have to wonder how much that's got to do with unoptimised drivers and unoptimised engines. It annoys me that there are some games I'll never be able to run (on PC) as well as they ran on the devs' PCs.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by prewett on Thursday December 26, 2013 @08:41AM (#6966210)
When I ran Linux, every time I updated my nVidia driver and did performance measurements, they seemed better, sometimes by a surprisingly large amount. I never did measurements with other systems. But if I were a graphics artist, the first thing I'd do with an optimized driver and engine is increase my polygon budget until I started to stress the engine/drivers again. At least, that's what I do with my own 3D programs... :)
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by blah32497 on Thursday December 26, 2013 @02:36PM (#6967623)
anti-aliasing is only needed because of low pixel density. With higher res screens it becomes irrelevant.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by sliverstorm on Thursday December 26, 2013 @12:48PM (#6967059)
So what you are saying is I probably shouldn't get three of these to run in EyeFinity
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by marshray on Thursday December 26, 2013 @03:46AM (#6965671)
That's an excellent and often forgotten point: higher display resolution is the original form of "hardware anti-aliasing".
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by Jare on Thursday December 26, 2013 @05:08AM (#6965826)
Don't believe Apple's line about pixels not being visible at retina dpis. Single-pixel slivers of geometry are still very visible in non-AA 2x resolution, and much more annoying (for me at least) than the smoother lower res with antialiasing.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by Eliezer on Thursday December 26, 2013 @02:35PM (#6967619)
I can't see any pixels on the 1080p Nexus 7 screen, even holding it up close to my face and staring, but that's higher DPI than Retina.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by barrkel on Thursday December 26, 2013 @04:08AM (#6965707)
Well, supersampling is the naive form of anti-aliasing, which is effectively rendering at a higher resolution then resizing down.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by leoc on Thursday December 26, 2013 @05:48AM (#6965895)
You'll also apparently be stuck with colour capabilities that are inferior to those of the new TV 4K standard.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by InclinedPlane on Thursday December 26, 2013 @03:22AM (#6965626)
Do you have more data or references on that? Frankly I don't believe it.
Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by barrkel on Thursday December 26, 2013 @03:43AM (#6965666)
http://us.hardware.info/reviews/5100/4/dell-ultrasharp-up241...

One last side-note. The Dell UltraSharp UP2414Q does not contains a built-in scaler, and none of the AMD and Nvidia cards we tried were able to display lower resolutions on a full screen. Nvidia cards used a quarter of the screen in the middle for Full HD 1920x1080 resolution, with AMD cards we were only able to select 1920x2160, which is half the screen. Until the GPU manufacturers adopt their drivers for this, the UP2414Q can only run its native UHD resolution full-screen. That does limit how you can use this screen right now.

See also this thread on dpreview, Roland Wooster has the monitor and has posted opinions:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3591245

And screenshots:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B7re6a9_3U2nOFhZNU1N...

from:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52771357

Viewing the screenshots full-screen on an existing 24" approximates the usability, albeit with blurrier text.

Re:Dell Ultra Sharp 24" 4K display by cespare on Thursday January 02, 2014 @05:53PM (#7002965)
I got mine in today, and hardware scaling seems to work just fine.