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Re:Unprofessionalism by tptacek on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @05:01PM (#6961288)
This was a fun read but I think the author is overthinking. How about: there are people in the world, quite a few of them, who like Nickelback. A "Refuse to play Nickelback" feature mocks and insults them. It's a little weird to feign surprise over that.
Re:Unprofessionalism by killwhitey on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @08:28PM (#6961847)
For me, it's not that the joke is offensive, it's that it's offensively lazy. Nickelback is a band that gets regularly shit on and putting that option in your app just says you wanted to make a joke but weren't creative enough to think of one. I'm surprised they didn't throw a mother-in-law joke in there for good measure.

Relevantly lazy xkcd: http://xkcd.com/528/

Re:Unprofessionalism by coldtea on Wednesday December 25, 2013 @12:16AM (#6962280)
>just says you wanted to make a joke but weren't creative enough to think of one.

Well, the same can be said for 90% of what passes for situation comedy. Hardly appropriate to pinpoint this to an app company.

P.S Also, the originality of the joke is not in using Nickelback, but in having a "ban this one artist" button in the first place. The artist being Nickelback is secondary, it could be Bieber or Cyrus etc.

That said, it was important, for the mechanics of the joke, that the artist was someone important and almost universaly despised, else it would be lost in the majority of users (where's the fun in "don't play King Crimson"?).

Re:Unprofessionalism by Crito on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @09:30PM (#6961957)
I don't believe that there is such a thing as "offensively lazy". The sets "lazy jokes" and "lazy jokes that have the power to cause offense" are not equivalent.

Have you ever seen somebody appear offended by "Why did the chicken cross the road?" "So how about that airline food?" "'Knock knock.', 'Who's there?', 'Banana.'" "Can I has cheeseburger?"

Those are all lazy jokes. As lazy is as is possible. Yet their laziness lacks the power to offend. No sane person is going to become offended by somebody dredging up some lame 10 year old joke about cats that like to eat cheeseburgers. Wherever you find an example of a "joke that is so lazy, it is offensively lazy", there is without fail a more plausible explanation for the offense the joke elicits.

For example, "Australians are upside-down". Lazy, and makes many people upset. Are they upset because it is lazy? No, they are upset because it is picking on other people (themselves or others).

Re:Unprofessionalism by coldtea on Wednesday December 25, 2013 @12:18AM (#6962287)
>For example, "Australians are upside-down". Lazy, and makes many people upset.

Exactly. It's a little known fact, but given Earth's exact orientation in space coordinates, it's actually Hungary who is upside-down.

Re:Unprofessionalism by wisty on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @10:42PM (#6962081)
> For example, "Australians are upside-down".

As an Australian, I don't mind it. Reddit bots which make jokes about it on every comment with the word "Australia" in it ... that's annoying (because bots wear out their welcome pretty fast). But most people like to be joked about.

The only lazy jokes which actually hurt are those which are rubbing salt in a wound.

Re:Unprofessionalism by Crito on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @11:03PM (#6962126)
Right, I think that's what I'm getting at. A lazy joke that is nothing but lazy is nothing more than a standard failure to rise above mediocrity. Repetition can push it into "annoying" very quickly.

If there is some element of rubbing salt in the wound, then the joke can cross into the territory of "offensive", but that can happen with novel jokes as well. Repeating an offensive joke can make it more offensive, since it contributes to an overall atmosphere, but the repetition itself is not what is offensive.

Australia being upside-down might not be the best example of a joke that crosses into offensive territory.

Re:Unprofessionalism by killwhitey on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @10:04PM (#6962021)
>For example, "Australians are upside-down". Lazy, and makes many people upset. Are they upset because it is lazy?

Are you saying there is no joke so bland, overused, and by the books that it would make people groan and say "that joke is so bad I feel offended you would think I would find that funny"

People don't dislike fart jokes because they're offended by farts. They dislike fart jokes because they're usually bad.

Re:Unprofessionalism by Crito on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @10:33PM (#6962066)
> Are you saying there is no joke so bland, overused, and by the books that it would make people groan and say "that joke is so bad I feel offended you would think I would find that funny"

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. A joke cannot become so lazy that it actually offends people with how lazy it is. In the most extreme case realistically imaginable, a series of sufficiently lazy jokes may anger people if they shelled out a lot of money on tickets to hear jokes, but even then they would not be offended unless there is something besides just lazy jokes at play.

Disliking fart jokes and being offended by fart jokes are two different things. If you are actually offended by fart jokes, chances are it has something to do with the scatological nature of fart jokes and your puritanical mentality towards such things. If you merely dislike fart jokes, chances are it is because you are not twelve.

Re:Unprofessionalism by statictype on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @10:19PM (#6962050)
Are you saying there is no joke so bland, overused, and by the books that it would make people groan and say "that joke is so bad I feel offended you would think I would find that funny"

Yes. I would think the joke is dumb. I can't see how you would be offended by it.

People don't dislike fart jokes because they're offended by farts. They dislike fart jokes because they're usually bad.

Interesting, because I would say the exact opposite. I don't like fart jokes because I don't like to think about farts.

Re:Unprofessionalism by jotm on Wednesday December 25, 2013 @08:45AM (#6962982)
Heh, they would be upset if it was an option in an app - "turn UI upside down if location=Australia" :-)
Re:Unprofessionalism by valleyer on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @10:01PM (#6962016)
The phrase "offensively lazy" is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Obviously no one is "offended" by lazy humor the way they are by racist humor, etc. It would more accurately be phrased "annoyingly lazy".

And I agree that this Nickelback joke is annoyingly lazy. Not funny enough for the inconvenience it apparently causes some users.

Re:Unprofessionalism by Crito on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @10:39PM (#6962076)
I think "annoyingly lazy" is a very fair description.

"Offensively lazy" annoys me because I don't think it is tongue-and-cheek much of the time. I think it is a phrase that gets brought into the fray when a joke really was offensive to some people. I never hear it in response to "rated PG" jokes; people who say it probably are offended, but it seems they have misidentified the source of their feeling of offense.

Re:Unprofessionalism by Houshalter on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @11:55PM (#6962230)
I think the app refusing to play a hated band is creative and have never heard of anyone doing that. Sure hating Nickelback isn't new, but since when does the subject of the joke make the joke itself uncreative?
Re:Unprofessionalism by repsilat on Wednesday December 25, 2013 @04:24AM (#6962662)
You've put this really well -- we can still laugh at Irish jokes and blonde jokes, why should Nickelback be any different? The joke isn't that Nickelback are terrible, that's just shared context like "genies grant three wishes," or "drunk people do stupid things."
Re:Unprofessionalism by ccernaf on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @08:57PM (#6961904)
I very much agree. It's totally okay to be unprofessional by being yourself: if you truly feel strongly about a subject, then by all means showcase that opinion.

However, what made me a bit upset was the last line in the second-to-last paragraph: "... while still being ourselves." Is hating Nickelback really you/your team? So much that you exclude that particular music artist, and not anybody else?

Of course, the 'feature' is a silly easter egg, and no one needs to call each other names over it. Still, stuff like this makes your app seem incredibly childish (not just unprofessional). If it was a clever insertion of your team's opinions, then including something unprofessional is fine. A teenage-old joke however is not remotely clever or funny.

Disclaimer: I actually enjoy a few of Nickelback's songs.

Re:Unprofessionalism by soup10 on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @06:20PM (#6961522)
I think the point can be a little larger. When you have a large audience it's inevitable that a portion will be, offended and annoyed and/or disagreeable when you are even slightly politically incorrect or strike the wrong tone or voice an opinion on something. The bigger you are, the closer the scrutiny. The end result is that most products and companies are completely devoid of personality.
Re:Unprofessionalism by protomyth on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @10:24PM (#6962055)
Personality doesn't require offending people, it requires creativity. Doing the insults is just a lazy way to look "edgy".
Re:Unprofessionalism by scott_s on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @08:59PM (#6961912)
That is a different point than the one Thomas was trying to make.
Re:Unprofessionalism by baddox on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @05:37PM (#6961390)
To me, the big warning sign is that the creators of a social music app seem to be ignorant of or in denial of the fact that music is one of the most deeply personal and subjective media in human culture. Even if they disabled a much less popular band, that attitude of objectivity doesn't sit well with me.
Re:Unprofessionalism by scarecrowbob on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @06:19PM (#6961519)
Naw, I disagree... if you can accede that they know that tastes vary, and thus that their own tastes aren't objective, then when they make a statement about their tastes, they probably understand the subjectivity of the statement they are making.

I don't take what they are doing as an objective statement about taste, but rather as their own subjective statement, which you can't really avoid doing once you're designing stuff for folks.

Re:Unprofessionalism by Crito on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @09:36PM (#6961965)
@baddox

The "c...j...k" word causes comments on HN to auto-[dead].

Re:Unprofessionalism by baddox on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @10:43PM (#6962083)
Thanks for the tip. That's really dumb.
Re:Unprofessionalism by Crito on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @11:20PM (#6962153)
A few other words do it too (rot13("znfgheongvba") does it as well, but only some of the time). I don't think this is caused by a hard-coded blacklist of words, but I'm not really sure exactly what conditions have to be met for it to happen.

@scarecrowbob: Your comment (the one that is a sibling to this comment) is also [dead]. I have no idea why, this is getting kind of absurd...

Re:Unprofessionalism by scarecrowbob on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @11:20PM (#6962155)
HA! My reply that quoted you is dead for similar reasons.
Re:Unprofessionalism by needacig on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @11:00PM (#6962120)
Can you give more hints about this word? I want to know and I don't get the hint.
Re:Unprofessionalism by Crito on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @11:12PM (#6962135)
circle + (beefjerky - cow)

One of the tweets from the article used the term. Baddox quoted that term. If you turn on "show dead" you can see baddox's comment.

Re:Unprofessionalism by gensym on Wednesday December 25, 2013 @12:07PM (#6963412)
So that's why my list of all-time-best punk bands that I keep posting to HN never gets any replies!
Re:Unprofessionalism by stephen_g on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @07:12PM (#6961662)
I might agree somewhat if you couldn't turn it off, but as it is, to me it just comes off as a fun, cheeky little jab.

Maybe they should have it off by default if so many people really can't take a little joke...

Re:Unprofessionalism by apike on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @05:32PM (#6961373)
I wasn't surprised that there was some blowback, just by the level of vitriol in one particular comment. The Nickelback feature was intended to give an example of how doing something unprofessional will generate criticism, even if doing it is net worthwhile.
Re:Unprofessionalism by coldtea on Wednesday December 25, 2013 @12:15AM (#6962275)
>How about: there are people in the world, quite a few of them, who like Nickelback. A "Refuse to play Nickelback" feature mocks and insults them. It's a little weird to feign surprise over that.

Even if you're a Nickelback fan, it's a little weird to not get the point of a joke setting (which you can also turn off).

It's not like it was any Nickelback's fan first experience with mockery for what he listens to (or as if he doesn't deserve it).

A world where you cannot mock anybody because everyone is gonna be a cry-baby about it, would be a sad world indeed.

Re:Unprofessionalism by yeukhon on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @09:49PM (#6961995)
Well, Justin Bieber is always on radar, yet, they won't say don't play JB songs by default :)

When you make this a public app, people who are fans of Nickbleback will be upset. It is unprofessional to me in the sense that you don't honor your customers' preference. Imagine Apple releases iTune with that feature, and decided that a bunch of artists are not played by default because it was fun to do that by being themselves, how would the public react? If this were just an app made with a friend, fine, maybe it was never unprofessional to the company behind it, but definitely not professional to the consumers, from the consumer's point of view. It wasn't a video app that restricts 18+ videos off by default.

And also a bit harsh to pick a particular band. I can be happier if this were just an April Fool joke and the team had made a prior agreement with the band that this was only for April Fool.

If you actually think Nickelback fans' complains are somewhat important for you to write a blog post, then you are definitely thinking about why it shouldn't be done in the first place.

Re:Unprofessionalism by dec0dedab0de on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @05:36PM (#6961388)
It is very easy to put yourself in a bubble and forget that there are people with different opinions. He probably was actually surprised that someone passionately defended Nickelback.
Re:Unprofessionalism by derefr on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @06:49PM (#6961608)
There are subcultures you can join, and, being a member of them, you can think of yourself as "better" than everyone else for seeing something they don't. (Religions work like this, for example.)

But there are other subcultures you can join, where being a member of them doesn't make you better. It makes you worse. And "accept that you're doing something bad and you should feel bad" is basically a checkbox on the EULA for joining the subculture. (Most sexual kinks/fetishes are like this, for example.)

The authors were surprised to find people who thought of Nickelback as more like a religion than a kink. Probably because anyone they knew who liked Nickelback, did it in the kink-like way.

Re:Unprofessionalism by jamesbritt on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @07:46PM (#6961752)
Partaking in fetish behavior makes you worse? And you should feel bad about it?

That makes no sense to me.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what was said here.

Re:Unprofessionalism by jbigelow76 on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @08:51PM (#6961889)
Lots of people have hang-ups and insecurities when it comes to sex. The easiest way to reconcile those hang-ups is to turn them into moral referendums.
Re:Unprofessionalism by derefr on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @09:06PM (#6961926)
I'm basically talking about a generalization of the phrase "guilty pleasure." It's not about being right or wrong in any objective, moral sense; it's just about the experience of "rightness" or "wrongness."
Re:Unprofessionalism by seiji on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @06:05PM (#6961480)
It's meant to be an inside joke with their reddit/4chan brethren. Viewed from outside their tribe, it does come across as condescending, but that isn't the intention (the intention is just to get more social props from giving other reddit/4chan brethren amusement.)
Re:Unprofessionalism by bmelton on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @06:33PM (#6961562)
That said, "pick a niche" is common advice for would-be entrepreneurs looking to break into a crowded market. Plenty of people hate Nickelback enough that I'm sure this carves out a nice space of mindshare for those who share the opinion that, as a marketing tactic for entering into a very crowded space, this seems about as effective as any other tribe-building exercise.
Re:Unprofessionalism by asperous on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @06:48PM (#6961603)
From a different perspective, it generated a lot of headlines so it was a good choice for publicity.
Re:Unprofessionalism by montag on Wednesday December 25, 2013 @02:21AM (#6962480)
I think Nickelback listeners can take a joke... To me, the mistake was turning it on by default.