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Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by huhtenberg on Thursday December 05, 2013 @03:11PM (#6856853)
Recommended follow-up reading -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

I know most of you heard of it, but, seriously, take a moment and look a bit closer.

Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by strlen on Thursday December 05, 2013 @03:32PM (#6857009)
I am all for closing Guantanamo (as well as stopping the horrible brutality in US prisons -- which is a much more pressing, but more "hidden" problem) but it's counter productive to compare US to a totalitarian regime. You are still free to leave United States, to hum a tune from a counter-regime movie, etc... without being thrown in Guantanamo. Many prisoners are also released from Guantanamo. It is legal to openly run a presidential campaign -- and win -- promising to close Guantanamo (but alas, it is not illegal to fail to follow through on this core promise).

In fact, the danger of United States becoming totalitarian is low: creeping authoritarianism, police state tactics, "law and order" used to justify horrid prison conditions and insane sentences, "reasons of state" blackholes (like aforementioned Gitmo), are real dangers. Plurality of the world is governed by either hybrid or authoritarian regimes (which most usually serve to satisfy their rulers' thirst of money and power); North Korea, a few former USSR republics, and perhaps areas of failed states controlled by totalitarian factions are the only unambiguously totalitarian states.

However, by hinting at moral equivalence between United States and North Korea, you end up serving those advocating this creeping authoritarianism: they can now present outlandish arguments that since those opposed to Guantanamo "apologize" for North Korea (note, I am not accusing you of this -- you are not saying North Korea is justified in what they do, but this could easily be spun as such!), advancement of their goals is advancement of North Korea's, Taliban's, etc... goals.

I'm saying this as somebody who feels very strong about torture being an unconditional and absolute moral wrong, sees Guantanamo as representing a very evil and dangerous tendency, and also sees current prison conditions in US as something that -- in the future -- will be seen in the same light as the breaking wheel and the torture rack. Comments like this do not help; just don't do this -- instead, speak up for human rights of all individuals (whether or not their testimony looks like it "serves US agenda" or "helps the terrorists").

[Edit: the big reason I feel strongly about this is that I came from former USSR myself. I remember many Americans, especially those who were unhappy with US behaviour during Cold War would always speak about how US was slighting "my guys", "my country", and being sorry for break up of USSR. They were surprised why I would speak so negatively about "my country" -- as if government and country were equivalent, Cold War was a morally neutral football match, and as if my country wasn't one my family willing adopted and chose to make their home, that is the US.]

Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by cup on Thursday December 05, 2013 @05:54PM (#6857999)
>In fact, the danger of United States becoming totalitarian is low.

You live in a country where the NSA knows every single thing about you, where the government has killed US citizens without a trial and where your government has tortured the children of prisoners.

Anyone who has ever lived in a totalitarian state before knows that the US joined the club a long time ago. We're just waiting for you Americans to realise it.

Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by strlen on Thursday December 05, 2013 @07:17PM (#6858393)
I've lived in a totalitarian state too. In a totalitarian state (or even many authoritarian states) you can't speak out against even mundane policies without very real danger of arrest and imprisonment. I remember my dad always closing the door and keeping volume law when listening to VoA or BBC. I can openly view websites and television programs of countries us is in de-facto state of war with. I can speak my mind to coworkers on politics topics (something, again, I can't even do in authoritarian states). Best of all, I can take concrete steps (e.g., make substantial donations to ACLU and EFF, some tax deductible, others not) to find the unnerving and dangerous tendencies.

In a way, saying "we live in a totalitarian state" sounds like defeatism to me: if it's true means there are genuine dangers to speaking out and standing up for individual rights -- which is a legitimate excuse not to do so. It also absolves the voters (and non-voters) of responsibility -- as in totalitarian and authoritarian countries individuals have no say in these policies. So stating US is totalitarian could become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Here's how The Economist -- for the most part, a publication with a civil libertarian bend -- saw the United States in 2007 -- the near height of abuses: http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_INDEX_2007_v3.p...

#17 is a far cry American's own self perception, but it is an even further cry from authoritarianism and totalitarianism. Given that, e.g., Vaclav Havel has successfully stood up against true totalitarianism with not much more than a typewriter, I think there's both a chance and a responsibility to turn this trend back.

Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by pekk on Thursday December 05, 2013 @07:08PM (#6858346)
President Castro, can it really be you?
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by refurb on Thursday December 05, 2013 @03:32PM (#6857008)
I see one big difference...

Starting 16 November 2009, as enabled by the Supreme Court ruling in Boumediene, dozens of detainees began to use habeas corpus petitions in U.S. courts to seek freedom from the Guantánamo Bay prison. In some cases, they testified by video from the U.S. naval base in Cuba. Fifteen Federal judges have found the government's evidence against 30 detainees wanting and ordered their release. That number was expected to rise as the judges were scheduled to hear challenges from dozens more prisoners.

How many North Korean prisoners get any kind of hearing?

Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by NoPiece on Thursday December 05, 2013 @03:44PM (#6857088)
There are two many big differences to enumerate, but a couple more important ones:

Guantanamo: "As of August 2013, 164 detainees remain at Guantanamo"

North Korea: "When Shin worked in the garment factory and accidentally dropped a sewing machine, the foreman hacked off his right middle finger just above the first knuckle as punishment"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaechon_internment_camp

Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by cma on Thursday December 05, 2013 @04:02PM (#6857197)
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by Finster on Thursday December 05, 2013 @03:22PM (#6856924)
Really. You're trying to compare Gitmo to North Korean prison camps?

Certainly, Gitmo is no picnic, but I have to question if you actually RTFA.

Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by clamour on Thursday December 05, 2013 @03:58PM (#6857172)
You're right, the North Korean prison camps by all accounts seem worse, but the Wikipedia article actually contained a lot of information that was new to me. For example...

In 2004 Spc. Sean Baker, a soldier posing as a prisoner during training exercises at the camp, was beaten so severely that he suffered a brain injury and seizures.

How many deaths are swept under the rug at places like Gitmo or at CIA black sites? If they're beating people to the point of brain injury, I'm guessing it happens.

Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by 27182818284 on Thursday December 05, 2013 @03:32PM (#6857006)
The trend is what is disturbing. As time moved over the last 10 years they got closer rather than farther apart.
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by NoPiece on Thursday December 05, 2013 @03:45PM (#6857093)
How so? All but 164 detainees have been released from Guantanamo. They were never close, and Guanatanamo is slowly being shut down.
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by 27182818284 on Thursday December 05, 2013 @04:35PM (#6857433)
Hopeless suicides, infinite detention, torture (by the definitions of lots of countries other than the one employing the guards), etc. Let's say N. Korea camps are "boiling." It wasn't that Gitmo is boiling like N. Korea, but we did see a nasty trend of turning up the heat on the stove rather than cooling things down or keeping things room temperature. The trend was nasty enough that as soon as a new POTUS got in office an executive order was signed within days—January 22 http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantana... , even if we still haven't worked out the execution of that order for various political reasons.
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by BrandonMarc on Thursday December 05, 2013 @04:09PM (#6857261)
While true, one reason the U.S. doesn't need Gitmo so much anymore is we're still going after and finding the same people, but now they are executed with drones, rather than captured.
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by pekk on Thursday December 05, 2013 @07:11PM (#6858357)
If one of the parties had allowed it, we could have dissolved Gitmo years ago
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by nether on Thursday December 05, 2013 @03:47PM (#6857100)
Big difference between US and DPRK is that we have heard of it, and are free to criticize it without repercussions.
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by fennecfoxen on Thursday December 05, 2013 @05:04PM (#6857643)
Also, unlike North Korean camps, they generally don't send young children to Guantanamo Bay because of their parents' political crimes (real or invented).
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by subsystem on Thursday December 05, 2013 @07:50PM (#6858569)
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by fennecfoxen on Thursday December 05, 2013 @08:12PM (#6858700)
Omar is at least alleged to have actually committed war crimes, and he was almost 16. Feel free to characterize the legitimacy of his treatment, but he's no Shin Dong-hyuk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk

Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by strathmeyer on Thursday December 05, 2013 @03:56PM (#6857155)
Some of aren't satisfied with just the illusion of freedom. We care about not just the American citizens that Obama is killing with drones, but human life all over the world.
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by bananacurve on Thursday December 05, 2013 @04:09PM (#6857259)
Your whataboutism ends up defending NK, but at least you get a lot of up votes.
Re:Testimony of Ms. Soon Ok Lee (2002) by scotty79 on Thursday December 05, 2013 @08:18PM (#6858729)
Guantanamo is actually sign of USA becoming more civilised. Less than 50 years ago US military armed formations partied harder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program More akin to their North Korean counterparts. Then again NK is developmentally delayed by about 50 years... Maybe around 2063 they will have their Guantanamo an will be abhorred by it.

On more serious note... When could we deploy few hundred thousands microdrones there and assasinate everyone who gives the orders?