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Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by csmuk on Saturday November 30, 2013 @06:34AM (#6822891)
And this is typically the end game for capitalism and globalisation. Can't see it changing without everyone working together and by nature that isn't going to happen if capitalism is in place.
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by swombat on Saturday November 30, 2013 @08:06AM (#6823038)
The fairly standard solution that the West developed to these specific problems of capitalism is unions. Based on this article, what seems to be needed is unionisation. Of course, history shows that this is not an easy path. But history also shows that this path works, eventually.
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by realo on Saturday November 30, 2013 @08:26AM (#6823081)
The problem in India does not have its root cause in Capitalism.

It seems to me that what is required here is a deep change of Indian society. Women seem to compete for men with money, which is absurd. Moreover, there is this "caste" thing which, frankly, sounds like feudalism from 1000 years ago.

In most of the western world, adolescent males compete for women with their charm, looks, etc... and also the other way around. Flirting is cool. No caste system.

How do you change an ancient country's attitude towards women? I don't think you can.

Traditions can be much more powerful than laws.

Capitalism, in India, is simply one more tool used by the higher castes in order to give strength to some deeply rooted traditions which are totally disconnected from the 21st century Planet Earth.

Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by marvin on Saturday November 30, 2013 @01:17PM (#6823932)
Just thought I would point out that gender-related socioeconomic phenomena usually have a more complex explanation than "it's absurd". This is also true in the West, with all of our weird dating customs. But it's harder to see the absurdities you are taught from birth. For example, why is it traditionally (and most commonly even today) the guy's responsibility to take the initiative in the courtship process? This article provides a stark alternative which is a very efficient counter-example to the evo-psych explanations a lot of people come up with.

I'm not advocating cultural relativism; the reality described in this article sounds really shitty, but it is usually instructive to go deeper and ask why things are this way among poor people in India. With sexual attraction being one of the most powerful drives and varying socioeconomic conditions in the world, it stands to reason that different places will have wildly differing customs. These change over generations, as the conditions that formed them change. For instance, an undersupply of men in the wake of a deadly war could be one force which vastly increases the sexual market value of men, and causes customs like the ones described in this article.

Look at China if you want to see a third way this can play out, where the roles are reversed.

Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by scotty79 on Saturday November 30, 2013 @08:34AM (#6823105)
It works by outsourcing manufacturing to places without unions and phasing out unionized factories on any available excuse. Did you notice how around 2008 lots of american workers got sacked and production plummeted? Funny thing is that production is back to pre-crisis levels already but noone invites the workers back. Companies are more efficient than ever. They probably bless recession for providing them the opportunity to shed off unnecessary unionized workers.
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by blumkvist on Saturday November 30, 2013 @10:43AM (#6823399)
There was a movie where a man explained exactly what you're saying. Do you know its title by any means?
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by scotty79 on Saturday November 30, 2013 @11:23AM (#6823519)
Sorry, no idea. I've seen some article with nice graphs illustrating the thesis. Employment, volume, profit plotted over recent years. I'm afraid I can't find it now.
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by LeeHunter on Saturday November 30, 2013 @07:06AM (#6822934)
To misquote Churchill "Capitalism is the worst possible system, except for all the rest".

The problem here is more a lack of strong mechanisms to set and enforce standards along with a host of deeply rooted cultural norms (especially the dowry system) that are easily exploited.

Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by nzp on Saturday November 30, 2013 @07:57AM (#6823019)
That (mis)quote of Churchill doesn't really mean anything, it's a shallow apology of capitalism, just a catchy formula that superficially seems to make sense if you don't care to think about the possibilities. If you suspend thinking it works on an emotional level because it suggests that yes, the people in power are aware of capitalism's shortcomings, they feel the pain but, alas, there's nothing they could do, so stop complaining you ungrateful somebody...

Churchill and the likes are not exactly neutral observers with no interest in preserving the status quo by any means possible, starting with intellectual dishonesty.

Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by moo on Saturday November 30, 2013 @07:52AM (#6823002)
Because the fat imperialist says capitalism is the best we have to keep it for all time until our star goes supernova? Our rooted first world lifestyle is the strong mechanism enabling these sweat shops.
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by VMG on Saturday November 30, 2013 @07:57AM (#6823018)
I agree.

A better argument is that free trade based on voluntary transactions is the only just and moral system of allocating resources, in theory and in practice.

Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by nzp on Saturday November 30, 2013 @09:25AM (#6823219)
Without further qualifications, I too agree completely. However, to me it's both sad and funny how twisted the meaning of "free" and "voluntary" become when used to defend (liberal) capitalism. This is a general remark, it's not meant as an attack of how you use these words (I wouldn't really know).
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by csmuk on Saturday November 30, 2013 @07:55AM (#6823009)
Spot on.

Churchill was distinctly batshit as well so you can't really actually cite him as a single reliable source.

Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by neuralk on Saturday November 30, 2013 @10:58AM (#6823453)
>Churchill was distinctly batshit

That's simply balderdash. Churchill was not only a brilliant politician, but an extremely witty and accomplished writer, thinker, and artist. He even received the Nobel prize ... for literature[1].

If you'd like to explain why you think he is "batshit" I'd love to hear it.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill

Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by gordaco on Saturday November 30, 2013 @08:36AM (#6823109)
That misquote reminds me so much of Stroustrup's C++ (mis?)quote, and the cynical man inside me tells me that it's just that everything getting widespread use shows its dark side. Sometimes that dark side is more conspicuous and/or shows eariler, and sometimes it has more serious consequences, though. Btw, I am much more fond of C++ than capitalism, which, I guess, puts me inside a tiny minority here on HN :).

About your second line, I think that the biggest problem about capitalism and developing/underdeveloped countries is that capitalism doesn't break the existing power structures, and, worse, it may reinforce them. There, capitalism is (even) less of a sea of oportunities and more of a new source of oppression mechanisms. The vicious circle associated with poverty isn't any good for people from the lower strata.

Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by walshemj on Saturday November 30, 2013 @10:58AM (#6823450)
And an acceptance of petty corruption and violence a coworker who's of Indian descent commented that his family had had had "several" properties expropriated by "gangsters"
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by csmuk on Saturday November 30, 2013 @07:55AM (#6823011)
Yes because more laws and control really help...
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by praxeologist on Saturday November 30, 2013 @08:34AM (#6823104)
The ability to actually enforce laws and protect girls against fraud (and rape or whatever else) is what I see as the main problem here.
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by csmuk on Saturday November 30, 2013 @10:24AM (#6823350)
I'd say a better solution is to encourage people not to be 100% self- interested (sorry I'm a rampant Marxist). They have laws but corruption is rife.
Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by praxeologist on Saturday November 30, 2013 @02:10PM (#6824144)
What would it even mean to not be 100% self interested? Are people in India never charitable or selfless? No, of course that is not true. When someone acts charitably it is still self interested insofar as the charitable act is taken up in order to meet the end sought after. What you said sounds nice, but I don't see how you really do it.

Yes, it is true that India has a culture of corruption and bribery. I wonder if part of these girls' wages are taken for the housing or "company store" type things. There were some stories recently about workers in Dubai who are just lied to about the level of pay and then held hostage with visa or passport paperwork. If it is that type of case here, then it is fraud and the exploitation is due to the faulty legal system, lack of enforcement, culture of misogyny, etc.

I don't agree at all with the idea that wage labor by itself is exploitative. Basically the error with Marxist exploitation theory is that it ignores the concept of time preference. Wage laborers with a higher time preference prefer present goods in the form of wages to the process of saving and deferring some of the present enjoyment and then taking up their own entrepreneurial venture. Of course, the state by erecting barriers to entry and other distortions exacerbate the problem.

Re:I Tried to See Where My T-Shirt Was Made by Theriac25 on Saturday November 30, 2013 @08:36AM (#6823115)
> this is typically the end game for capitalism and globalisation

Say what?