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Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by pron on Monday November 18, 2013 @07:58AM (#6754065)
Google fascinates me. I think it is possibly the first organization in history that embodies concepts from dystopic fiction. Putting a real face to those dystopic ideas can give us a sense of what a true dystopia looks like (short answer: it looks deceptively nice; the horror reveals itself only on close inspection).

You mention work. As you say, Google does not just want their employees' time. They want their complete identification with the company. In a way, they want their souls.

As for business, Google is a company whose business model is tricking people into sharing as much private information with the company, and then using this information for profit.

One of the most interesting things about Google is their "don't be evil" motto. I want to write a complete literary interpretation of it some other time, but here are the highlights. Obviously, it's a short and catchy motto that is not intended to be taken too seriously, but that does not preclude literary interpretation.

First, let's consider the motto as a whole. It could be a motto for anyone, but how come it's Google's and not mine (or yours)? The reason is that they accept the premise that corporations do often turn out to be "evil" (whatever that means). This is analogous to the reason physicians swear to "do no harm"; they swear it because doctors can easily do harm.

Now let's take the motto apart and analyze it word by word. First, the word "evil". The word assumes such a thing exists and can be recognizable. Second, the word "be". It implies that evil is something you are, not something you do. Lastly, the word "don't". It assumes that you can choose not to "be" "evil", and implies that those who "are" "evil" are so because they chose to be that way.

If a motto can guide a corporation, and if this motto guides Google, we can see why they've become so monstrously terrifying. Evil is not always easily recognizable. Often, it's in the eyes of the beholder. Second, evil is rarely something you are, and almost always something you do. Third, "evil" creeps up on you, and is often the result of the best intentions. People other than James Bond villains don't choose to be evil. Similarly you can't simply choose not to be. To abstain from "evil" you must be vigilant. You must constantly analyze your actions and their consequences separately from your intentions, and listen to other viewpoints.

Going back to dystopias, well known ones, like Orwell's 1984, insist that the masses love their oppressors rather than fear them. This is a crucial point that is largely overlooked when people discuss the NSA surveillance scandal. It is crucial because true power, absolute oppression, cannot exist if its wielder is generally considered suspect.

When I read 1984 many years ago I couldn't understand that. Do people not notice that they're being manipulated and exploited? Can they actually enjoy being exploited? Now we have the answer.

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by melindajb on Monday November 18, 2013 @10:50AM (#6754828)
I've wondered for awhile about this. Having lived through the first wave of tech companies, where the idea of perks was bagel wednesday and free coffee, I find myself a bit amused at the naked desire to own employees' entire lives.

As I worked with more milennials I think I've stumbled across something, and Google (consciously?) tapped into it, brilliantly. The children of the baby boomers, so eager to use social networking, or live in communes in the city (see yesterday's SF Gate) are so willing to believe in this shell of an idea passed down from their parents. They are much more social and communal than us in generation X. They're often morally adrift (religious worship is declining), financially adrift (the economy), and grew up with tales of free love. They're delicately raised to have great self esteem, but often crumble in the face of adversity or criticism. They're a brittle group, it seems. So the social nature (if my friends do it, it's ok) makes them so eager to buy into this.

I can't say it's a new concept. I remember showing up to work at big mega tech corp at 8 am (after a 1 hour commute) and being told "nice of you to show up today." I routinely worked 12 hours a day and we were never allowed to work from home. There it was forced on us, but how ever so much nicer to just gently slide into being a company man with free food, etc. Sort of like the Matrix.

That said, daycare is an important perk, I cannot deny Google the kudos it deserves for caring for parents who work for them. More companies should do this.

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by pron on Monday November 18, 2013 @11:05AM (#6754914)
You mention religion, and I think not by accident. I find Google's founders' involvement with the Burning Man festival to be a guiding principle of how they perceive work and society. Burning Man adopts many religious ideas and practices, most of all the power of religious ecstatic experiences. Max Weber tried to tie the rise of protestant christianity to the rise of capitalism. He postulated that the ascetic ideals of protestant christianity urged people to adopt hard work as a central tenant of life. I think that Burning Man helps take this idea further. It turns work from an ascetic endeavor to an ecstatic one. Burning Man is the religion that underlies Google's view of work.
Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by melindajb on Monday November 18, 2013 @03:07PM (#6756592)
this is what keeps me coming back to HN. thanks for the insights. very interesting....people always want something to believe in, whether it's god, country, exercise, companies, etc. Religion (of any kind) is one of the best sources of dopamine.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-there-a-...

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by mkr-hn on Monday November 18, 2013 @02:40PM (#6756404)
It's always weird to read accounts of experiences with my age group that diverge wildly from my own experience. Everyone I know is hard working and completely open to criticism. Maybe you just got a bad batch in your local experience. Religious observance is near absent, but no one I know is without morals.
Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by melindajb on Monday November 18, 2013 @02:44PM (#6756433)
I don't mean immoral. I mean amoral.

From grammarist:

The adjective immoral means contrary to established moral principles. Immoral actions are corrupt, unethical, sinful, or just wrong. Amoral means (1) neither moral nor immoral, or (2) lacking moral sensibility. So while immoral and amoral might share a little common ground, there is a clear distinction: immoral things are bad, and amoral things are either neutral from a moral perspective or simply removed from moral considerations.

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by mkr-hn on Monday November 18, 2013 @02:48PM (#6756469)
Are you talking about religious morals or humanist morals? No one I know lacks moral sensibility. Some of them even derive their set from religion.

I had a look at my own OED, and it agrees with your definition. It's still not an accurate depiction of the morals of anyone I know.

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by melindajb on Monday November 18, 2013 @03:04PM (#6756568)
Lucky you! (and I mean it).

I more think about it this way--and hey, if I chose the wrong word, do correct me.

When we are changing the world with our technology we don't really stop to think about all the people who will be put out of work by it. We don't as a community really care much about the impact of our companies on our communities (giving to local arts organizations and volunteer efforts in SF are not rising concurrently with population or wealth).

To be fair, this thinking isn't limited to milennials, it's just that as children they were more likely to have been raised without the early foundation of morals which are usually taught by religion.

I do not in any way mean to imply religion is necessary for morals, just statistically that's how most people get them. I also don't mean to imply milennials are criminals, just that well, it doesn't occur to them to think sometimes about the impact of their choices; or if they do, they don't care. Hell, maybe I was that way in my 20s and I've conveniently forgotten it...so maybe it's a function of youth.

The brittleness though? absolutely. Most of them are deeply insecure, fundamentally needing a lot of praise. I don't mind , because that's the kind of leader/manager I like to be; but adversity is hard for them to deal with.

I sometimes think one's attitude toward all this is dependent on when one arrives in the area; for myself having arrived during the bust of 2002 I feel perpetually like "winter is coming." for those for who it has always been prosperous springtime, it's hard to realize how important it is to squirrel away money, karma, connections, etc.

Random musings. YMMV.

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by erikpukinskis on Monday November 18, 2013 @07:56PM (#6758483)
I don't think religious attendance necessarily means moral education. Some people do get that out of religion, many do not. Some in fact get ammunition for frameworks of immorality.

My feeling is that, today as a hundred years ago, the bulk of moral education comes from watching and interacting with other humans. Parents, teachers, friends, and neighbors hurting you, helping you, being hurt by you, being helped by you, and discussing all of the above.

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by melindajb on Tuesday November 19, 2013 @12:16PM (#6762617)
Never said it did.

If one wanted to, one could argue the baby boomers were pretty amoral and self-oriented; leading to millennials seeing and adopting that.

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by serge2k on Monday November 18, 2013 @04:22PM (#6757137)
Oh cool,I don't practice religion so I'm an amoral heathen.
Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by superuser2 on Monday November 18, 2013 @11:35AM (#6755106)
This hyperbole is pretty extreme. Google embodies dystopian fiction because it

1) Didn't fall on its sword to spite the federal government. 2) Wanted to unify the identity systems across its products.

Are you serious?

The third party doctrine is something out of dystopian fiction. Congress and SCOTUS's behavior regarding national security is very 1984. But Google? Really?

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by sbuk on Monday November 18, 2013 @09:00AM (#6754306)
I'm not a massive fan of Google, but in their defense they dropped the moto in 2009[0].

[0]http://www.siliconvalleywatcher.com/mt/archives/2009/04/goog...

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by pron on Monday November 18, 2013 @09:29AM (#6754413)
I liked this quote:

David Krane, a senior spokesperson for Google, told SVW: "I never liked it. I always felt that it would come back to bite us in some way, that we would end up building concentration camps, or something even worse. The universe seems to love irony, why leave ourselves wide open?"

Well, the universe does love irony, but concentration camps are unnecessary in this day and age. Knowledge is power, and building a company whose purpose it is to collect and use as much personal information as possible is bad enough.

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by Tyrannosaurs on Monday November 18, 2013 @10:34AM (#6754748)
They've now replaced it with "You can make money without doing evil".

https://www.google.com/about/company/philosophy/ (point 6)

Presumably the written bit is "but that's not to say we won't anyway".

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by droidist2 on Monday November 18, 2013 @11:38PM (#6759305)
Yeah, or "but why take any chances?"
Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by Tyrannosaurs on Tuesday November 19, 2013 @04:54AM (#6760170)
"But where's the fun in that?"
Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by aryastark on Monday November 18, 2013 @03:03PM (#6756558)
reminds me a bit of Animal Farm. Where the rules on the farm slowly change over time, allowing for more and more transgressions to occur. 2009 is also, I believe, around when Google started recording WiFi data with their street view cars.
Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by npb on Tuesday November 19, 2013 @02:28AM (#6759757)
I was reading this today, and it's surprisingly relevant to your comment.

How to Deconstruct Almost Anything--My Postmodern Adventure http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/decon.html

Re:Google's Decline Really Bugs Me by pron on Wednesday November 20, 2013 @11:50AM (#6769139)
While I can agree with some of what is said in that article, the writer exhibits not only massive ignorance, but a basic misunderstanding of the premise. Because I studied both mathematics and history at university, I am very familiar with the mutual contempt people of those "two worlds" have for one another, but I think the reason for it that they don't understand the premise of the other discipline: namely the axioms and the purpose. An HN comment is not the place to discuss this at length, but very briefly, the humanities and the exact sciences have different understandings of the concept of "truth". In the exact sciences, truth is a model of reality that agrees with observations. In the humanities, truth is anything that can give us pause, make us think about ourselves and look at the world in different ways. For example, in the exact sciences, the statement "the moon is made of cheese" is simply false. It is disproved by observation. In the humanities, it could be "true" if you can imbue it with meaning that enriches you. If it makes you ponder the significance of the moon, or of cheese, to your life, and if it makes you consider an idea like "the moon", which may be something beautiful but far away, is actually made of cheese, a mundane substance, then the statement can be true.

In short, neither scientists/mathematicians/engineers nor historians/literary critics are stupid (well, most of them aren't). If this is your starting point, then if before dismissing the other discipline you realize that it's being studied by smart people who know what they're doing, and give yourself time to understand the premise, you might actually learn something. The writer of that article simply does not have the tools necessary to determine whether a "reading" is bogus or not, because he does not know what "non-bogus" or "true" is in the framework he has tried to explore.

Having said that, there was very little deconstruction in my interpretation of "don't be evil". In fact, I think it's a pretty straightforward interpretation once you've decided to interpret the motto seriously. It is a literary failure on my part to interpret it so unimaginatively, but it's only meant as a starting point.