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Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by flexie on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:11AM (#6732052)
How many flights take off or land with all passengers and crew members in full compliance with the current rules? Close to none.

Say commercial planes have 60 passengers/crew member in average. 5 don't have any devices (small kids). Of the 55 passengers that have one or more devices, maybe 30 turn off their devices as they are told, 15 put them on airplane mode and 10 don't give a shit or just forget it.

If there are 20 million flights per year there have been some 400 million flights in the 20 years where cell phones have been common. 400 million flights of which 99 percent have flown with some passengers' phones turned on. Has there ever been a single flight accident due to cell phones? Just one?

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by gnaffle on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:44AM (#6732188)
There haven't been any accidents AFAIK, but there have been several reported incidents: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/docs/rpsts/ped.pdf - see page 54 for one example.

As newer airplanes are better shielded and old ones are taken out of service, the number of reported incidents have dropped in recent years down to 1-2 per year, which isn't much given the massive increase in PEDs and number of flights.

The report that the FAA published actually has a lot of interesting info about this: http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/ped/media/ped_arc_final...

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by Zigurd on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:53AM (#6732227)
For the same reason the above message cites as reasons to think the rules were always bunk, the "reported incidents" are also likely to be bunk. It is very unlikely that any one passenger's electronics are the only electronics left on, and therefore very unlikely that the guy who gets berated for leaving his iPod on is causing any problems.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by gnaffle on Thursday November 14, 2013 @09:18AM (#6732382)
So you think that all the reports dating back to the 60s when superhet transistor radios appered, are likely bunk?

Wouldn't that imply a worldwide, secret pilot conspiracy, especially with incidents where the pilot has been able to reproduce the interference by asking the passengers to turn the device back on?

It's certainly very unlikely that an iPod will cause any problems. That doesn't mean it's physically impossible, as many people seem to think. Which is why I recommend reading the FAA report, which goes into a lot of detail on exactly what considerations they've taken, the risk analysis and why they are changing the rules now.

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by Zigurd on Thursday November 14, 2013 @09:40AM (#6732505)
> Wouldn't that imply a worldwide, secret pilot conspiracy

No, it would only require similar delusions. That happens all the time.

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by gnaffle on Thursday November 14, 2013 @09:59AM (#6732617)
OK, if you think that's the more likely scenario, and you believe the FAAs analysis is wrong without even reading their report, then I rest my case.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by harimau on Thursday November 14, 2013 @11:17AM (#6733137)
Some people believe anything from a government agency is wrong and that there aren't smart, capable people doing their jobs on the other end. Of all the things with air travel to pitch a hissy fit over, this one has always comes across as the silliest to me. Things really are going down the tubes if you can't be bothered to not look at your piece of glass for a minutes.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by PhasmaFelis on Thursday November 14, 2013 @03:21PM (#6735256)
> Things really are going down the tubes if you can't be bothered to not look at your piece of glass for a minutes.

Every time this comes up, somebody's got to get snooty about Kids These Days and Their Attention Spans and Facebooks and Pokeymans.

All I really want to do is read a book during takeoff and landing. Reading is still a thing mature, responsible people do, right? Thanks to ever-decreasing passenger and storage space, it can be a genuine pain to fit even a mid-size paperback into my carry-on luggage in such a way that it's easily accessible during flight, especially for big, tall folks like me. It's much easier all around if I can read a book on my phone, which I have to have with me anyway; or, for some people, a slim tablet or e-reader is an easier fit.

But no, I can't do that (yet). I have to either cram a book in there somewhere, or spend 20+ minutes with nothing to distract me from the heat and the cramps and the screaming babies but vapid seat-back magazines. I know it's not the end of the world, but it's one more frustration piled on top of an already deeply frustrating and dehumanizing experience. After paying hundreds of dollars for the privilege of getting treated like a criminal suspect and then packed into a can like a sardine, it's not unreasonable to keenly desire a little bit of comfort and distraction, is it?

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by gnaffle on Thursday November 14, 2013 @05:01PM (#6735973)
I agree with you, and I hope that lighter devices like ebooks and phones will be exempted eventually. Personally I always opt for a window seat and spend all that time looking outside enjoying the view of other airplanes. So in short, I'd recommend becoming an aviation geek, that will do a lot to distract you from all those annoyances. :)
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by pandaman on Thursday November 14, 2013 @09:09PM (#6737253)
Usually people say "minutes" when they are talking about time intervals of several minutes. The period you cannot use electronics is from the time the cabin door closes to the moment the plane reaches some arbitrary height on take off and the reverse sequence on landing. This can easily be anywhere from half an hour to several hours e.g. if the flight is delayed it will just stand at the gate with the closed door waiting for clear. You cannot use any electronics during that time.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by jerf on Thursday November 14, 2013 @06:08PM (#6736394)
You are responding in the context of a rather simple, factual argument ("How bad can these devices be since common sense shows they're already on during takeoff anyhow?") with first a political attack, then an emotional attack. Was this really a helpful post?
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by hackerboos on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:27AM (#6732104)
I've never switched off my devices during take-off or landing because if it actually risked any damage then they'd be screening people before they board.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by dalore on Thursday November 14, 2013 @09:25AM (#6732417)
I picture it now. Terrorists boarding flight after flight with their mobiles on thinking, this time it will work.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by fluidcruft on Thursday November 14, 2013 @11:37AM (#6733281)
That would have made a pretty funny punchline to a sketch. Suspicious looking guy (better band of suspicious looking guys) getting the full TSA workup/cavity search etc. Finally gets on board, everyone watching him suspiciously etc. Some sort of minor tussle with obvious plain clothes security who's reseated next to him by a concerned stewardess. Etc. When it's time to take of he fakes turning on airplane mode/powering down when placing it into the seat pocket. He smirks knowingly, closes his eyes and dreams about his field of virgins.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by danik on Thursday November 14, 2013 @02:27PM (#6734827)
That's a very weird view of things. Do you really think this rule exists without a reason? Why not just follow the rules and turn your devices off, it's not going to hurt you, but a crash could.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by noarchy on Thursday November 14, 2013 @03:39PM (#6735384)
Some might find, on the other hand, that it is a very weird view to not question rules before obeying them. For many readers here, there has no doubt been some awareness of the questions surrounding these flight rules, since this sort of topic (it's about our gizmos!) is going to be front-and-centre for many of us.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by CamperBob2 on Friday November 15, 2013 @12:49AM (#6737963)
Do you really think this rule exists without a reason?

Yes, which is why we're getting rid of it now.

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by kalleboo on Friday November 15, 2013 @02:55AM (#6738246)
The rule existed due to uncertainty. We have now eliminated that uncertainty.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by steeve on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:20AM (#6732080)
My understanding was that it hasn't to do with phones being turned on per se, but rather one's attention at the moment the flight is the riskiest: at take off and landing.

The rationale was that when you're playing on your device, you're paying less attention to the crew and what's around you, which can be problematic in case something bad happens and you need to react.

EDIT: I'm just the messenger, guys ;)

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by Sambdala on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:28AM (#6732107)
My understanding is that's the common ex post rationalization that arose to try to come up with a plausible-sounding reason for this idiotic rule.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by JonnieCache on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:36AM (#6732155)
My favourite theory was that cellphones above the clouds could connect to too many cell towers at once, making triangulating your location impossible.

Conveniently forgetting that they have a live update of your exact position from NORAD/FAA/etc...

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by teraflop on Thursday November 14, 2013 @04:10PM (#6735609)
Well, I always heard that the problem was rapid handoffs between towers causing a lot of extra load on both the cell network and the phone itself. I can tell you anecdotally that on a few of occasions I haven't put my phone in airplane mode during a flight, and it seems to drain the battery muck more quickly than normal.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by Zigurd on Thursday November 14, 2013 @09:42AM (#6732529)
The "too many handovers too fast" thing might have been a problem in the '80s, and I have never heard of a documented case of that.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by mikeash on Thursday November 14, 2013 @07:15PM (#6736782)
My understanding is that the problem isn't with the speed of the handovers, but rather with the fact that the horizon is a major block to radio signals, and the horizon is much farther away when you're at altitude.

Older networks were designed around the fairly reasonable assumption that a cell phone would only ever be able to talk to adjacent cells, because anything farther away would be over the horizon. So you might be able to talk to both A and B at the same time, but you couldn't talk to C without first losing contact with A.

Raise the phone a few thousand feet in the air and this assumption goes out the window, confusing the network. There's an amusing story of a pilot who called up his family to let them know he was almost home and ended up getting billed for the call (at expensive 80s rates) a bunch of times because several different towers all thought they were running the call.

There's certainly no problem today, anyway.

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by Zigurd on Thursday November 14, 2013 @07:29PM (#6736883)
> Older networks were designed around the fairly reasonable assumption that a cell phone would only ever be able to talk to adjacent cells, because anything farther away would be over the horizon

That can't possibly be true. Spectrum re-use in distant sites could in theory have some effect on the call but differences in signal strength would make significant effects unlikely.

Also, that story about the pilot must also be apocryphal. A handover is a handover, and there is only one "winning" decision. Not to mention that CDRs don't work that way.

Lots of civil aviation pilots use mobile devices in the air without problems for the user or network.

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by mikeash on Thursday November 14, 2013 @07:50PM (#6736972)
You may be right about the story, but I don't really see the obstacle to it happening. If you initiate a call in the air, you could easily not be able to communicate with the cell directly below (since they don't radiate much signal upwards) while being able to talk to two that are adjacent to it. Since those two cells would never have a reason to communicate in normal operations, confusion ensues.

I know that lots of pilots use mobile devices now, but we're talking ~30 years ago.

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by arethuza on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:22AM (#6732085)
I quite often get early morning flights (e.g. I got a 05:50 on Monday) - usually by the time the flight takes off I am already sleeping. Nobody has every tried to wake me up so that I pay attention to take off or landing.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by rlpb on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:33AM (#6732136)
On the other hand, you're permitted to be absorbed in a book or newspaper.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by agilebyte on Thursday November 14, 2013 @09:53AM (#6732589)
Or your friendly in-flight magazine showing a special selection of...
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by masklinn on Thursday November 14, 2013 @09:35AM (#6732483)
Books don't have to be "turned off" during takeoff and landing. You don't have to wake up either if you're sleeping.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by wepple on Thursday November 14, 2013 @04:59PM (#6735959)
this seems valid to me - they put just as much emphasis on ensuring your window shade is up (for post-crash hazard identification) to electronics being switched off.

It's likely due to attentiveness should you need to evac

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by saraid216 on Thursday November 14, 2013 @05:33PM (#6736168)
AFAICT, they tell you to put the window shade up during landing in order to wake people up and thus to get out of the seat and off the plane as soon as possible. I've never had them ask to open window shades at night (possibly because they're not closed).

Which is perfectly fine with me.

Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by gizzlon on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:14AM (#6732061)
I don't know anything about this, but it could be that the risk was higher the more devices where on.
Re:Europe approves use of in-flight electronics during take-... by gnaffle on Thursday November 14, 2013 @08:53AM (#6732221)
Yep, if you read the FAA position, that's the idea. The risk wasn't seen as huge, but since there was a possibility of interference the trade-off seemed reasonable. Just one of the many small things done to improve safety.