News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by pinaceae on Friday November 01, 2013 @01:38AM (#6651991)
Google threw the gauntlet when it took a billion dollar investment into a mobile OS and gave it away for free.

these dumping tactics ruined the market for licensed OS like Windows.

did anybody truly believe the rest of the software industry would take it up the ass from google without fighting back?

bing, apple maps, patents, etc - all part of the war. how much money does MS already make off android due to lost patents?

blaming a single player in this game is ridiculous. schmidt in apple's board was the ultimate insult.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by cromwellian on Friday November 01, 2013 @01:55AM (#6652039)
How dare they! And how dare Linus Torvalds "dump" Linux on the industry, or Mozilla "dump" Firefox. They should be required by law to charge high fees!
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by lambdasquirrel on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:08AM (#6652090)
I wouldn't rush to that analogy. Microsoft dumped IE and we mostly agree that that was kind of dirty. From another angle, Google is trying to leverage one monopoly in order to break into another, and they did it by poorly copying the iPhone.

There aren't really any "good guys" in this picture, but I at least give Microsoft a nod for trying (and failing) to do something different.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by panarky on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:15AM (#6652114)
There really are good guys and bad guys here. Lumping them all together is false equivalence.

Google isn't "dumping" by giving Android away for free. They have a different business model, and it makes money. It also keeps the competition sharp. Nothing wrong with that.

What's shitty is that Microsoft and Apple are doing everything in their power to delay and destroy innovation for their own benefit.

Google's actions have accelerated innovation. Android has been good for customers, good for Google, and good for the industry.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by realcul on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:38AM (#6652177)
yes, Google/Motorola suing Microsoft/Apple for standards essentials patent was to foster innovation..LOL
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by cromwellian on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:57AM (#6652238)
Innovation happens when people can build on the efforts of others, and has been so for the entire history of man. Any system that puts up road blocks to sharing and propagating ideas inhibits innovation.

The justification for patents in software as providing shelter for inventors to work on their inventions while releasing the details of how they work is complete and utter bullshit and has been so for a long time. First, the way people share inventions in software is by publishing papers in journals, at conferences, or by shipping software, so that their peers benefit. No I know of has ever used a patent database or patent pending database as a search engine for knowledge sharing.

Secondly, software is shipped and revised so fast, and the time for patents to be granted, and successfully litigated in court, is so long, that more than enough time already exists for inventors to recoup their investments. It could take a decade or more to go from software patent application to successful litigation, so the idea that the patent protection is needed to shelter you while your startup executes is nonsense.

As far as I can tell, software patents serve one purpose and one purpose only: to inhibit and restrict competitors, or to shakedown successful companies with deep pockets.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by patrickaljord on Friday November 01, 2013 @07:58AM (#6653057)
These were defensive lawsuits and you know it. When you're attacked by patent trolls, the only option is to counter sue with a similar patent troll attack. Think mutual assured destruction nuclear style. But I'm sure you're aware of that and just being disingenuous to make your point.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by cromwellian on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:23AM (#6652138)
IE wasn't released unbundled from the OS as source for anyone to fork, so it's a false equivalence. If IE was released like Firefox/Mozilla was, no one would be complaining.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by 001sky on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:41AM (#6652184)
It was bundled, not dumped. But the bundle had more impact than an independent "dump". So, by substance if not by form, it is a comparable analogy. MS did not want to get shut out of desktop browser. Goog did not want to get shut out of mobile browser. They were both playing the same move strategically. Give away that which my enemey needs to sell to survive....
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by cromwellian on Friday November 01, 2013 @03:11AM (#6652285)
MS could not get shut out of the browser desktop market, period, there was zero chance of that ever happening, since they controlled the platform, >90% of the market. iOS is a locked down ecosystem, if iOS wanted to block Google ads, or change the default search engine, they could do it and Google would have no recourse. Big difference.

Note, Android allows Firefox, even as a default browser for opening links. That's impossible on iOS and on Windows RT.

I don't have any problem with people shipping free software, even Microsoft. The issue is whether consumers and developers have choices.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by 6thSigma on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:19AM (#6652128)
> they did it by poorly copying the iPhone.

Sigh.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by mkjack on Friday November 01, 2013 @07:35AM (#6652996)
Microsoft didn't get in trouble for "dumping" IE. They got in trouble for trying to make IE an integral component of Windows which would have made other browsers unusable or unnecessarily cumbersome to use.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by pinaceae on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:04AM (#6652071)
comparing Linux to Android is ridiculous. Linus released and built it from genuine, ulterior motives. google wanted a platform to display ads.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by cromwellian on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:34AM (#6652161)
No, Google wanted a platform that prevented Microsoft and Apple from completely controlling and owning the onramp to the mobile web with two dominant proprietary operating systems that prevent third party software installs without approval, a huge huge reduction in freedom even comparing it to Microsoft in the 90s. And in that regard, they did the world a favor, regardless of whether it was selfish or altruistic.

It doesn't matter how you try to downplay it. Google shipped a huge useful chunk of kernel changes to Linux, plus a mature, ready, out of the box piece of open source that anyone can fork and use as a foundation to make another free OS, like FireOS, Tizen, FirefoxOS, etc, and they successfully got a platform deployed on a huge number of devices around the world that don't completely lock down who can install what.

Even if they had completely evil motives, good has come out of it. If you're a rabid fanboy who wanted Steve Job's platform to have a monopoly on mobile, it's depressing for you, but it's liberating for everyone else.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by ubernostrum on Friday November 01, 2013 @04:44AM (#6652515)
Not to go all meme on you, but let me FTFY:

Google wanted a platform that prevented Microsoft and Apple from beating them to control of the next big advertising platform.

Nothing more, nothing less. "Open" has been shown conclusively to take a back seat to monetization. It is as much a marketing tactic (in the sense that it's useful to promote the platform, but can and will be discarded, with spin to explain why, when its usefulness decreases) as anything in Microsoft's or Apple's ads.

And it doesn't matter how you try to downplay it: companies other than Google have, whether they intended to or not, accomplished undeniable good through things they've shipped. Apple, for example, has contributed monumentally to LLVM, which is a large and useful public good. But it did so more or less explicitly to screw the GPL.

So, faced with all the major players doing this in some form or another, how, precisely, do you plan to rank them relative to each other in order to discern which one is "good" or at least "least bad"?

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by cromwellian on Friday November 01, 2013 @05:16AM (#6652623)
I give Apple props for for their contributions to LLVM or WebKit (and OpenCL, and Darwin), no one is saying they haven't done any good things for the ecosystem, but that doesn't erase the egregious damage that the iOS T&C impose on the ability of people to do what they want with their devices. To me, that ranks them lower. That, and the aggressive "thermonuclear" offensive litigiousness they have, not just on patents, but even going back to the Look-and-Feel lawsuit of the 90s. I'm an Apple fan boy when it comes to their hardware, I've owned every Apple device, I own an iPhone 5S, the A7 is remarkable. I love the hardware, I hate the closed nature of the platform, the fact that I need to jailbreak my device to have ownership of it.

For the average consumer, control of "the next big advertising platform" is a meaningless abstraction, it matters to people in the ad buying business, not consumers who generally don't like ads in the first place, and tolerate them mostly to get free stuff. And how does Android "control" mobile web advertising anyway?

But for the average consumer, telling them they can't install App X on their device that they spent $300 on because Apple censors don't like it is much more direct.

No company is perfect, but I can say as a Googler, your cynicism is basically wrong, that open source isn't just a marketing tactic, but that the rank and file at the lowest levels of the company, culturally believe in it. Google has disappointed in the past on the degree of openness, and there is much to improve, so I am not uncritical of it in this regard, but if you were to query the rank of file of Microsoft and Apple with regards to open source, and Googlers, you'd find a lot more zealots at Google.

The world isn't black and white, it's shades of gray, and some are just a much brighter shade of gray than others.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by ZanyProgrammer on Friday November 01, 2013 @08:22AM (#6653172)
I'd go so far as to say that Windows RT is more open than iOS-with Windows RT you have built in Windows Explorer, and command line access. And a non crippled browser (desktop IE 11 vs mobile Safari).
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by belorn on Friday November 01, 2013 @05:23PM (#6656532)
Given the context of this discussion, it must be mentioned that LLVM license do not include a patent grant. Apple has patented several frontends of LLVM, and is likely to have several patents on the core parts of LLVM. Apple could do a oracle at any time.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by DannyBee on Saturday November 02, 2013 @01:30AM (#6658276)
"and is likely to have several patents on the core parts of LLVM"

While I work for Google, and was involved in the CPTN and Rockstar stuff (and thus can't comment on this article at all, though I wish I could), i can actually point out that this statement is not right.

First, companies that wish to contribute to LLVM are asked to non-assert patents involved in their contributions. This is covered in the dev policy, and has been for a long time. Their are non-assertions/grants on file for a number of companies now.

As for whether Apple owns any patents on LLVM core, Chris Lattner himself told me Apple held none, which is why they had not filed a non-assertion.

Apple may or may not hold patents on LLVM code that is not "in tree" (so yes, they may have non-public frontends or backends they own patents on), and I never specifically asked about the clang frontend, but I trust Chris enough to know that if there was in-project code, be it clang or core or whatever, he would have followed the dev policy and Apple would have non-asserted them.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by belorn on Saturday November 02, 2013 @06:19PM (#6661077)
While thats nice and all, Apple has made no binding or even public statement to that fact. They also have at least one patent which mention LLVM by name (Converting javascript into a device-independent representation), even if that "just" is a frontend.

There is simply nothing that prevents apple from using patents against LLVM users. We can only hope that none of their numerous vaguely written patents cover any technology used by LLVM or any of their frontends like Clang.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by neya on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:07AM (#6652084)
> a platform to display ads.

Wow, you used just a single line to describe an entire, complex, (possibly superior) open source operating system?

I'm done reading comments here.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by mythz on Friday November 01, 2013 @01:57AM (#6652050)
Exactly which part of investing billions of dollars acquiring and developing a technology and giving it away for free, lowering the price of consumer devices, needs to be prevented?

If they've discovered a business model that enables them to invest, develop and freely distribute their own tech to end-users benefits, they should encouraged, not a victim of established cartels using their cash war-chest to buy B.S. patents that they can use as anti-competitive weapons to legally attack their competitors instead of competing against them technically in the market-place.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by Ygg2 on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:50AM (#6652213)
ALL OF IT!

Seriously, who wants cheap superior products? Not me, that's who.

On a serious note, I hope those patents, get downturned and that 4.5 billion investment goes sour for all involved.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by jmodp on Friday November 01, 2013 @11:26AM (#6654404)
>> Exactly which part of investing billions of dollars acquiring and developing a technology and giving it away for free, lowering the price of consumer devices, needs to be prevented?

The part where it ends up eliminating competition and results in a mono culture?

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by mythz on Friday November 01, 2013 @04:42PM (#6656256)
It only results in a Mono culture if others are unable to compete.

Regardless, the world is better off with a mono culture around an OSS project than a walled-garden keeping everyone hostage to their whims.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by pedalpete on Friday November 01, 2013 @01:44AM (#6652012)
It's called strategy, and from Google's standpoint, it's a brilliant one. Seems to be working very well for them, while keeping competitors at bay.

With regards to Schmidt on Apple's board, you're not the first to mention it here, as I responded to another comment, Apple was really dumb in this instance. Google bought Android in 2005, Apple brought Eric Schmidt onto it's board in 2006. So, either Apple was hoping to get some insight into what Google was doing with Android and hoping Schmidt might slip up, or they just shouldn't have brought an advisor on who was the CEO of a potentially major competitor. I was always amazed that that happened. Google Buys Android - 2005 http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2005-08-16/google-buys-a.... Schmidt Joins Board - 2006 http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/08/29Google-CEO-Dr-Eric....

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by chubot on Friday November 01, 2013 @03:48AM (#6652400)
I'm sure Steve Jobs was aware of that potential conflict -- he was pretty shrewd after all :). It's was probably along the lines of "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."

Plus he wanted the iPhone maps at launch, and probably a few other things which he could only get from Google. Steve had been around the block, and screwed many people over himself. His outrage was calculated.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by mkjack on Friday November 01, 2013 @07:39AM (#6653016)
Links don't work... :-(
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by haberman on Friday November 01, 2013 @01:53AM (#6652034)
Apple threw down the gauntlet when they made it clear that their devices would be a walled garden where they would have absolute control over what apps you can run.

Prior to Android, your choice was between your carrier overlords and the Apple overlord. Not only was that limiting for users, it was a vulnerability for Google business-wise to have their direct competitors as gatekeepers between their services and their users.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by Apocryphon on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:06AM (#6652079)
But with Android, the choice is between your OEM overlords and the Google anti-fragmentation efforts overlord. Yes; you can flash your own ROM and switch to CyanogenMod or Replicant. That is the freedom you are guaranteed in Android. But how many people actually take advantage of it?
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by bad_user on Friday November 01, 2013 @03:16AM (#6652299)
I take advantage of it. I love it that I can take advantage of it. I also helped about 5 other people take advantage of it, by installing Cyanogen on their obsolete phones (I'm not from the US and down here people keep their phones longer than they should).

What you say is a classic logical fallacy. Do you repair your own car? Personally, I like having the freedom of doing repairs on my car outside of "authorized" repair shops, even though I know nothing about cars.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by Joister on Friday November 01, 2013 @03:38AM (#6652372)
>But how many people actually take advantage of it?

Who gives a shit. The fact that the option exists means the "android locks you into google" argument is nonsense.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by gibwell on Friday November 01, 2013 @10:43AM (#6654064)
It means nothing of the sort. Regular consumers are absolutely locked into google by this, and as a consequence, so are developers.

The fact that a few hobbyists can back their phones does nothing to change this.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by fpgeek on Friday November 01, 2013 @05:22AM (#6652644)
You forget about "Unknown sources". In practical terms that is substantial freedom (see: Amazon and other app stores) that makes Android phones qualitatively different from phones with an overload (OEM, carrier or otherwise).
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by hershel on Friday November 01, 2013 @08:13AM (#6653127)
>>how many people take advantage of it?

The Chinese do.

Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by smsm42 on Friday November 01, 2013 @01:57AM (#6652048)
They are really evil people. Probably as evil as those who created OSes, languages, browsers, protocols, libraries, compilers, IDEs - and gave them away for free. If not for the "rest of the software industry", everything would be in ruins now due to evil commies that dare to give away software.
Re:Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar... by derleth on Friday November 01, 2013 @02:03AM (#6652068)
> Google threw the gauntlet when it took a billion dollar investment into a mobile OS and gave it away for free.

Seeing as how MS sold Xbox consoles at a loss so they could sell expensive games, I doubt MS has much of a leg to stand on with this claim. Apparently, the Xbox One is the first Xbox to be sold at a profit or break-even from day one; this was such a bold move that Forbes devoted a whole column to it: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/09/06/microsoft...

(Other articles indicate that most consoles are sold at a loss. I'm picking on MS because it was mentioned in the article as a party to this suit.)