> Like a lot of things, I think beer is fine if you're adult about it.

There are a very long list of things that are typically prohibited at work that would be fine "if you're an adult about it." There's a crossover point at which the population of workers becomes large enough that it is difficult or impossible to impose the "be an adult" requirement. The arbiters of responsibility cannot be within reach of all behavior, and thus we mitigate the opportunity for irresponsibly by removing factors that contribute to irresponsible behavior.

I'm of mixed opinion on it. I don't like the idea of saying "this is fine for one organization, but not for another", but that's kind of the reality. If the focus of your business is building a business, you have to sit down and evaluate how the presence of alcohol in the workplace serves that goal (or detracts from it). Yes, it may be a very valuable perk to some employees, but it also has the potential to be a big problem. Even moderate consumption (I know you're not advocating this) is known to alter judgement and lower inhibition.

I think people need to say "this is fine for one organization, but not for another". Or one person and not another. One houseplant and not another.

American society is overly fond of one size fits all rules - that on one hand end up with adults being treated like children, and the dumbing down of culture and a restricting oeveryone's rights to protect the few from bad decisions - and on the other hand end up with overwatered cacti and tons of other kinds of shoddy work practices, and resulting products, because of a culture of not thinking just following the rules.

Neither of these problems are overwhelming - but fighting back with a realistic view of the world is simple, and effective at avoiding a whole mess of problems.

I like that notion. I've always felt unfair using different determinations for different groups, but the way you've expressed it is very much like how we handle this kind of thing in our organization. We like to say, "it's not a problem until it becomes a problem." It provides a nice incentive as well. Don't like verbose, restrictive policies? Then everyone do their best not to be an asshole and we won't have to use them.

> Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment? That's what I think it is.

Of course this is it. I'm teetotal and I have never found it alarming that my fellow hackers love a beer. There are too many aggressive proselytiser factions in the tech community. Why can't we accept that we are all different and make allowances for that. Of course as a white, British, heterosexual, able-bodied, 20-something male, my opinion is given a -∞ weighting.

> I can't imagine this creating a problem.

Are you serious?

Talk to just about any attorney, and it won't take him or her more than a minute to rattle off a laundry list of scenarios that could literally turn your business upside down in an instant. Your question, "Is the subtext here about hostile frat culture, or, worse, about harassment?" suggests that you have some idea of what can go wrong but frankly, a hostile work environment and harassment claims are just the tip of the iceberg.

If you think defenses like "nobody seemed drunk", "nobody was drinking whole bottles", "we always drank responsibly" or "it was Friday" are going to protect you, you're wrong. The involvement of any amount of alcohol in a work-related "incident" will leave your company vulnerable.

If you ask your attorney to enumerate possible disaster scenarios every time you make a decision relating to your business I'd guess you might decide that the whole thing was not worth the risk.

This is a straw man argument, and the type that can only appeal to a company wanting to make poor, ill-informed risk management decisions.

No business can eliminate all risk, but some risks are unnecessary and easily eliminated. Serving alcohol to employees creates a significant amount of potential legal liability (it could literally bankrupt your company) but it is hard to reasonably and objectively argue that the potential liabilities are outweighed by any of the potential benefits.

Assuming you are not operating dangerous machinery are you likely to be sued for simply allowing alcohol to be consumed? I can see that you might be held liable for some other problem of which alcohol might be a contributing factor but simply eliminating alcohol may well not solve that problem anyway.

The potential benefits of allowing responsible alcohol consumption might be more than you think, if it helps provide a relaxed atmosphere where people want to go to work and are less likely to jump ship to your competitor for a marginal pay increase.

> Assuming you are not operating dangerous machinery are you likely to be sued for simply allowing alcohol to be consumed?

Providing alcohol to your employees or permitting them to consume alcohol on the job or at a company-sponsored event creates a whole host of potential liabilities. Here are a couple of real-world examples:

http://www.riskandinsurance.com/story.jsp?storyId=533353814

http://www.mmdnewswire.com/faapuna-mac-manu-mahoney-law-grou...

If you believe that alcohol is a good way to create a "relaxed atmosphere" let me assure you: there's nothing relaxing about watching your insurance premiums skyrocket, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on attorneys, paying millions of dollars in damages and/or living with the fact that you were involved in an incident during which someone was seriously hurt or lost his or her life.

Lawsuits are filed every day, has there been a ruling that just by serving alcohol they were liable? Or perhaps they are liable due to obvious negligence similar to how a bar can be found liable after a DUI if they over-served someone?

It is interesting that there doesn't seem to be the lawsuit worry or even the worry about "living with the fact that you were involved in an incident during which someone was seriously hurt or lost his or her life" at European companies.

There was an interesting ruling in California a few months ago[1] and you don't need to look too hard to find cases in which an employer was found liable or settled[2].

Keep in mind that when a lawsuit is filed, the strength of your defense doesn't matter if you don't have the funds to pay a quality attorney. In many kinds of cases, you can easily rack up tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills before you even begin to address substantive matters, and plaintiff's counsel has no incentive to approach the matter in a fashion that reduces your costs.

[1] http://www.xperthr.com/news/marriott-ruling-highlights-risks...

[2] http://www.tprglaw.com/wolowsky-v-bum-steer-restaurants-inc

For every event like this there are thousands where people have a good time. Just don't let your employees drink-drive.

If "ask your attorney" is good policy, it's good policy regardless of whether the topic is one that you find intuitively naughty or one you find intuitively innocuous.

One potential benefit - you signal to employees that your workplace is fun. Many growing companies will die if they don't get the right talent. Compare the large risk of getting the wrong people to the tiny risk of an employee getting drunk and raping/murdering everyone, and the calculus is far from clear.

If what you said is true, why do many extremely large corporations serve beer at company events, and sometimes even stock it in the office?

Are their attorneys incompetent?

My SO is an attorney so I'll respond by relaying a couple of things I hear first-hand on a regular basis:

1. Many clients ignore the advice they're given.

2. Big companies spend lots of money settling lawsuits that could have been completely avoided.

A six or seven-figure lawsuit, which may require tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend, is an inconvenience at a billion dollar company. It can be the end of a startup or small business.

Of course they ignore it. If they took every counsel opinion to the bank, they'd almost never sign a contract.

I know criticizing attorneys is a fashionable pastime, but your comment is neither informed nor creative. I know it may come as a shock, but attorneys make a lot more money structuring, negotiating and drafting agreements than they do advising clients not to enter into them.

This said, the type of advice that I was referring to pertains to legal compliance and best practices in the context of running a business. Example:

1. An employer is advised by counsel that it must or should keep certain records.

2. It, for whatever reason, fails to do so.

3. As a result of its failure, it is fined, or is less able to defend itself in a lawsuit.

This sort of thing happens. Every single day. The only thing being taken to the bank is money that employers never had to part with in the first place.

I'm not criticizing attorneys. I like attorneys. I don't think you're reading my comments very carefully.

So, I have the experience of routinely seeing the opinions of attorneys on a whole range of issues, and while I'm sure you're right and they could come up with any number of hazards, if we made our decisions based on attorney worst case scenarios, we would never do anything.

It's funny because your response is very hostile, but we actually agree. I see how fraught alcohol in the workplace is. It's clear to me how it could cause problems. I have what I think is a fairly deep appreciation for the kinds of people that I work with, and I can make considered judgements based on that understanding.

But I definitely don't have a one-size-fits-all prescription for how to handle it. Other people on this thread talk about the glasses of beer they drink in meetings in the afternoon; I followed some teammates down on one of their smoke breaks and asked about it, and they were unanimous in judging that atmosphere frat-y. If you're routinely drinking substantially during the workday, I'm worried about your culture too. But: maybe you understand your team better than I do.

If I was in an office full of people I'd only known for 3-9 months, I'd probably be on the "no drinking in the office" side of this issue too.

Also, the idea (which I'm getting from this thread) that beer is an expected perk of startup dev jobs makes me a little queasy.

I can see there being a liability to the firm if someone leaves the office drunk and wraps their car around a tree. Maybe that's why "Beer at the office" seems to have less resistance in NYC? Maybe it's also the high price of alcohol here too?

For better or worse, if I want to grab a beer with a co-worker to talk about something informal, there's something to be said for doing it out of the building. Of course it helps that there are half a dozen spots within 2 blocks.

I think the difference here is what you're describing is a group of beer nerds who happen to work together (Russian River in Chicago, that takes effort) vs a culture of slamming miller lite all day long while "working"

But then, if you don't like it, why work there?

Personally I hate ties. I hope I'll never have to work at a place where I'd be forced to wear a tie. Yet I am not calling for all offices to ban ties.

Personally, I agree. I'm a huge fan of beer. I think a better point though in the context of startups is who are you not getting to work there by embracing the culture? Is it worth it?

Absolutely - although in the case of beer maybe you'd also lose a few people by not offering beer.

Exactly, with a colossal difference in working environment.

> Like a lot of things, I think porn is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of porn in our Chicago office...

> Like a lot of things, I think guns are fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of guns in our Chicago office...

(I'm sorry, did I misquote you?) Just because some things are fine if you're adult about it, doesn't make them appropriate at the office.

Why would you have alcohol in an office?

> But nobody drinks while they work (...) so many of us are parents

So they're at the office, not working, and drinking beer. If their work is done (it has to be since you can't work after beer) why don't they go home to their family and kids?

> Like a lot of things, I think coffee is fine if you're adult about it. We've got quite a lot of coffee in our Chicago office...

(I'm sorry, did I misquote your misquote?) Just because some things aren't fine if you're adult about it, doesn't make all things inappropriate at the office.

Why would you have coffee in the office? What about all the people who can't drink coffee, because of their religious beliefs(Mormons), or because they have cardiovascular conditions which prevent them from intaking coffee?

> If their work is done (it has to be since you can't work after beer) why don't they go home to their family and kids?

It seems you have a very unhealthy relationship with beer. You seem to think that the only reason to drink beer is to get drunk. Are you really saying that it isn't possible to work after drinking one beer? And are you really saying that people who are parents shouldn't be wasting their time socializing with coworkers, and they need to just shuttle immediately from the office to their family once work is done?

> You seem to think that the only reason to drink beer is to get drunk.

I'm not saying that and I'm not thinking that either. I don't like beer very much but I drink it occasionally. I prefer wine.

> Are you really saying that it isn't possible to work after drinking one beer?

Yes, I'm saying that, absolutely. You (I) can't do creative thinking (or any kind of thinking) after one glass of alcoholic beverage.

> And are you really saying that people who are parents shouldn't be wasting their time socializing with coworkers, and they need to just shuttle immediately from the office to their family once work is done?

Yes, I'm kind of saying that too. I don't think "socializing with coworkers" is very healthy. Friends are friends, coworkers are coworkers. Just because I'm in an office with other people doesn't make them my "friends".

If friendships develop, then great! and we can meet outside of work. But drinking together while at work but not working, in front of the boss, is not my idea of a good time.

I think it's mostly the boss's idea of a good time; it makes him think he has so many friends! But they're not his friends, he's paying them to be there.

> You (I) can't do creative thinking (or any kind of thinking) after one glass of alcoholic beverage.

I believe you might be incorrect. I recently read that a moderate amount of alcohol (~2 beers, which in my mind is a lot...) led test subjects to perform BETTER at tests of creativity. [1]

You or I might not want to work after having alcohol (I'd rather nap), but apparently it can help some people. It's not inconceivable that one might have some beer, and then go back to work for another hour or so.

1: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/244065.php

Had to jump in here. Just because you have a person preference of complete sobriety whilst working shouldn't mean it's a policy for everyone.

For example: • I work best in the early mornings - does this mean everyone should come in from 5am? • I find it hard to work at a stand-up desk - nobody can use stand up desks anymore, sorry. • I feel drained after going to the gym before work - nobody can go to the gym before work, it will stifle your creative thinking. • Wearing long pants (versus shorts) makes me uncomfortable (i.e. unproductive) - no more long pants in the office.

If they make me unproductive - fine. That's me. As for making it a company issue - tell me which of the above options go beyond personal preference.

Not sure if you're trolling...

Sex is not fine in the workplace thus porn is not fine.

What's wrong with guns at the office? So long as you are complying with all laws I don't see the problem.

What's wrong with coworkers being friends and hanging out for a bit after work on a Friday?

I'm sure RedTube and Smith & Wesson would disagree with you regarding your examples.

What the fuck are you talking about? If someone brought a gun to the office, that would be their last day working with me.

I don't even know what to say about porn in the office. In 19 years working in this field, that is an issue that has never come up (unlike guns).

...?? That was my point exactly? Just because some things are ok "when you're adult about it" don't make them ok at the office.

I'm not advocating bringing guns at the office, I'm advocating not giving free alcohol to your employees!!

I don't see what possible good could come from drinking at work, but I see a lot of bad.

Unless your company offers private offices with headphones,tissues and a strict knock-first policy you can't have porn because it will at best distract and at worst offend the people nearby.

But beer, and people drinking beer and talking louder and louder as they drink, isn't distracting in a place of work?

You can drink a beer at your desk without being having to talk any louder or having to talk at all.

That's not the situation the parent is talking about.

If you mean tptacek's comment, I think that this is exactly the situation he is talking about.

I think a big cultural indicator might be advertising your beer fridge on the job posting. Having beer in the fridge and being cool with people having one on a late Friday afternoon is one thing, making it one of your selling points is another.

Perhaps the "beer" subtext is just more about being exclusive (beer nerds welcome here) versus inclusive. What if instead the same event was going out to a bar, where you can order a whiskey, cosmopolitan or soda?

I think it fits into the greater "culture" of a workplace, and is at most a symptom of the problem and not the answer. If a CTO thinks his ads are appearing "sexist," the problem must go deeper than the keg in the break room (which is just the most obvious sign of immaturity.)

Perhaps there's a difference in culture between bottles versus kegs? The former suggests restraint, the latter doesn't?

It all depends on the context. Out of the beer-friendly offices I've worked in, I've preferred the ones that have kegerators because it means I can pour myself half a beer at 5pm instead of going for a full 12oz.

I agree with this. And as a side note, it brings me back to the days where my student house would come together to try and finish a torpedo keg. We always failed our mission. But I believe we came out the other end closer friends

Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. Just the presence of a small bottle fridge says to me - "We're a relaxed and fun place to work. We take your mental wellbeing seriously and don't mind you unwinding a little on a sunny friday afternoon."

Whereas a keg just says "Drink up, there's plenty more".

Either way, I think that having beer in the office is less of a perk and more of a culture indicator. In one easy move you've made the company looked relaxed and friendly. You don't even have to be drinking the beer regularly, just have it available for special occasions or somesuch.

We don't have a small bottle fridge because we want to seem like a relaxed and fun place to work. We have a small fridge to hold Fresca, and enough people that really appreciate craft brewing that the bottom shelf of that fridge tends to have good bottles.

There's no company policy that keeps the fridge stocked; it's something that arose organically from the people that work in this office. Our MTV and NYC offices don't routinely have beer (the MTV office has the empties of the Dark Lord we bring them when we get out there).

A deliberate company policy of keeping the office plied with alcohol sounds to me like another one of those signals that maybe your company's relationship with alcohol is a bit fraught. (But that's easy for me to say; maybe I just like to drink so much that I can't see how fraught my existing relationship with drinking is? Who knows.)

So, in other words, you could stop providing beer and nobody would notice, or care if they did?

Is there anyone in your office who doesn't partake? Mormons, Moslems, Baptists, alcoholics, people who just don't care for beer?

Yep, there are. And, yeah, I think that's another good acid test: if not stocking beer would alter the quality of life for a job here, that'd be a good sign that there was a problem.