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Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by apalmer on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @11:13AM (#6515498)
Are you claiming that music is a dying art form? Really?

The music industry is at best a 100 year old historical anomaly compared to the at least 4000 year history of music. The life of musician has pretty much always been extremely unlikely to be financially rewarding. Even at the height of the modern music industry maybe 1 in 1000 aspiring musicians ended up being signed to a major label. Musicians by and large have always made the bulk of their income based on in person performances. The only difference now is music companies now are losing out on record sales and starting to design contracts where artists have to split show and endorsement money with the label as well as record sales.

Honestly its a moot point, the technology has changed, and the music industry has to change with it or die. The whole music industry was created by the technology of the record, and will change or die with the advent of easily copyable media.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by CWuestefeld on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @04:22PM (#6517575)
Amplifying this point...

Even the greatest of musicians through history have had to struggle to survive, it wasn't always about rock supergroups skipping across the world in private jets, screaming groupies ready to service their every desire.

I'm reminded of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, which are some of the greatest works by one of the greatest musicians that ever lived. These works were not a platinum hit at the top of Billboard's charts. Heck, Bach didn't even get paid for them! These compositions were sent on spec to the mayor of Brandenburg (hence the name) in the hope of stirring up some sponsorship so Bach could continue his work.

If you're like me, you picture the hopeful rock star as struggling along, trying to supplement his income by giving guitar lessons to locals. This also describes Beethoven - he was frequently hunting for commissions to keep himself afloat, and had to earn money by giving piano lessons.

The idea that musicians should somehow be above all this stuff is a modern invention. Most of the greatest works in history were not done by people enjoying easy financial prospects.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by camus on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @04:57PM (#6517803)
Slaves did not get paid for their work too , what's your point? are you ready to code for free ?
Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by freehunter on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @05:54PM (#6518074)
Yeah, programmers never do work without getting paid. They would never think of working a job to support themselves financially but also do programming after work just because it's something they're passionate about. Every programmer is a rock star and will either make a billion dollars or go do something else.

Open source and side projects don't exist in this world, of course.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by Flimm on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @05:07PM (#6517866)
The point is that people are so passionate about music that they will make it, even for free, and the results can be outstanding.

The same can't be said about the type of jobs slaves used to get.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by williamcotton on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @11:33AM (#6515636)
Of course music will still be around. I'm saying that music as we know it, music that has been made as a result of the industry and technologies of the 20th century, is dying.

Claims that it isn't are false and misinformed.

What is ALWAYS missing from the "new solutions" is the investment in emerging artists.

Sure, you see companies like Live Nation/Roc Nation setting up these 360 deals. There is definitely some promise to these new approaches, but the investment money is WAY lower than what it was. I don't know the figures, I can't find the numbers online, but I will talk to people I know in music to see if I can track down some facts and write an article on the subject.

My point stands, however. The author of this article doesn't know what he's talking about and the data he presented is useless and doesn't contain enough information to come close to accurately representing the music industry.

BTW, there is a great opportunity for "music venture capitalists".

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by apalmer on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @11:50AM (#6515763)
Music as we know it? What does that even mean? Really I dont understand what you are getting at? This isnt snark I really want you to explain.

Perhaps you mean the phenomenon of popular artists that are so big that they are household names across all demographics across the globe/nation. If so then your probably right. Probably we will see less new justin timberlakes/drakes/britney spears level superstars, and more local/regional/niche stars.

as far as the investment, really labels/mangement companies will continue to invest in whatever makes them money... the size of the investments will probably diminish, but realistically the breakdown of record label investment is 90% marketing/promotion. And realistically if your projected to sell 50% less you should cut your marketing budget appropriately, that has very little to do with the music as an art form at all.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by williamcotton on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @12:18PM (#6515964)
Music as we know it. Rock and roll and popular music as an art form. Albums, 3 minute songs. Things that were designed to fit on to a plastic disc and be played on the radio between commercial breaks. This is what made up the "music industry". Touring was a loss-leader to sell plastic to people up until about 10 years ago. You had to go out and make your sales! Come to town, have the local paper and radio do your marketing for you, people maybe come to your show or maybe go buy your album at a record store. That is going away. Hence, the art form will die along with the changing media landscape, because well, you know, The Medium is the Message.

I'm not crying about this, BTW, I'm merely pointing out that the death has started. For fucks sake, I don't even really LIKE making records as much as I like writing and performing music with a group of people, so personally I'm enjoying these transformations.

The point I'm making is, is yes, the music industry is dying. Something else will come along and replace it. Music won't die, but whatever we've become accustomed to over the last 80 years is quickly disappearing.

Again, claims that this isn't happening are misinformed.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by OvidNaso on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @03:44PM (#6517350)
All of your examples have to do with minor minutia of the day to day life of a musician, but you give no examples of how the actual landscape of music has changed. And I find it baffling if the point is that the focus and work required by an artist today is more different compared to one 10 years ago than it was for that artist compared to one 50 years ago. Television, music videos, global marketing, magazine specialization. These things didn't alter a musicians life more than the current decline in retail sales?

Please expand and explain, because Albums, 3 minute songs, radio play with commercial breaks and touring are all very very similar to 10 years ago from a consumer perspective despite the proliferation of other choices and the changing landscape.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by williamcotton on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @04:04PM (#6517475)
Dude, we haven't seen the landscape change yet because no one knows what the fuck is going on.

Let me put it this way. Should I make my art in the form a 180 minute long atonal sound collage that can only be heard by buying a custom piece of machinery that is installed in your house OR should I make my art form 55 minutes of music that can fit on a Compact Disc?

Think of shipping containers. Should I make my own custom shipping container or should I go with the modern, modular standard?

The medium affects the kind of art that is made. The reason we even ended up with the three minute single and the LP have more to do with the physical limitations of vinyl than anything else. An entire industry and culture sprung up around this. It is prohibitively difficult for a musician to go outside of the well established path of the current industry to make and share their music.

Music isn't about 3 minute songs, it isn't about albums, or anything of the sort. It conforms to the momentum of culture and technology as much as it inspires the technology and culture.

It will survive, but the current culture and industry will of course go away, and with it, the entire art form.

Think about that phrase. ART FORM. Roll it around in your mouth, taste it on your tongue. Art will always be made, but it's shape is constantly in motion.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by whiddershins on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @06:54PM (#6518385)
Hey man, shameless but on-topic plug. I believe I am on to the solution.

http://gralbumcollective.com/about.html

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by mattmanser on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @07:20PM (#6518521)
Mmmmmm 180 minutes of atonal 'sound collage' hell, otherwise known as complete and utter self-absorbed wank. 99% of the music listening public aren't interested in hearing it.

There are plenty of examples of the non-3 minute song and generally they've been done by masters of their art, the reason songs are 3 minutes long is because that's our attention span for average music.

Records, your plastic limiter, haven't been popular for decades, eons in pop music time, entire generations of teenagers have gone and past, and yet most songs are still 3 minutes long.

So there's your pet theory out of the window.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by williamcotton on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @08:19PM (#6518751)
My point with the "sound collage" wasn't with the CONTENT, rather the MEDIUM. It makes more sense for me to ship a stereo recording across an established channel like a Compact Disc instead of coming up with my own proprietary medium. If I make an art form known as an "album" and I make it available on Compact Disc, I can plug in to an existing industrial infrastructure. Sound engineers, mixing engineers, networks of distribution, journalism, marketing... EVERYTHING has been built on top of the little plastic disc. If I forgo the little plastic disc, the album, well, I can't tap in to this industry. You literally can't get someone to review or promote your work as a musician unless you have a little plastic disc.

If you're interested in my "pet theory" of the medium being the message, I highly recommend you check out Understanding Media by Marshall McLuhan.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by coldtea on Wednesday October 09, 2013 @05:04AM (#6520165)
>There are plenty of examples of the non-3 minute song and generally they've been done by masters of their art, the reason songs are 3 minutes long is because that's our attention span for average music.

That might be your attention span, as you have been conditioned into, all your life.

Plently of cultures cherish much larger popular music forms.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by belorn on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @07:08PM (#6518457)
So long there is a commercial need for 3 minute songs, there will be 3 minute songs.

Piracy as the article talks about is non-commercial p2p kind of piracy. That means when a theater group want a song, or a company producing advertisements, or a movie, or a game, or a bar or any other commercial entity want a short song, they will have to buy one. With commercial interest, musicians will produce music to full fill said demand, and 3 minute songs get produced. It might be a smaller market than the one during the 80s, but a smaller market is still more than none at all.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by kbutler on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @02:58PM (#6517059)
> a dying art form

> music as we know it...is dying

> the music industry is dying

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by chollida1 on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @03:18PM (#6517197)
> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Both you and hacker news would be better off if you read this article and then commented to the parent with your rebuttal rather than what you think is a witty one liner with no substance.

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by kbutler on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @08:42PM (#6518822)
The rebuttal is obvious from the graph (the central point in the article, which was hyperbolically disputed above): Music isn't dying - the industry around it is evolving.

That's what happens when new technology is introduced into an existing business model - the industry changes. Existing players may exit the market (some may even "die"), some struggle, some adapt to the change and thrive, and other new players enter.

> a dying art form > music as we know it...is dying > the music industry is dying

Music as an art form is largely unchanged, especially the more artistic, less "pop music"-focused forms.

The music industry is refocusing on live performance and the long tail, and less on retail sales of pre-recorded physical media.

Adapting, evolving, changing, transforming.

Maybe declining, shrinking, endangered, troubled.

Maybe broadening, renewing, refreshing.

"Dying" doesn't describe it well at all. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by route66 on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @11:56AM (#6515809)
> Probably we will see less new justin timberlakes/drakes/britney spears level superstars, and more local/regional/niche stars.

This is being parroted around here for a while, but that does not make it more true. Big artists are less affected than small labels. See also: http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/20/business/fi-cotown-i...

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by chc on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @07:30PM (#6518554)
This is kind of missing the point, which is that fewer artists will get to that level, not that artists already at that level will suddenly be forgotten.
Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by mattdawson on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @12:26PM (#6516017)
>> Perhaps you mean the phenomenon of popular artists that are so big that they are household names across all demographics across the globe/nation. If so then your probably right. Probably we will see less new justin timberlakes/drakes/britney spears level superstars, and more local/regional/niche stars.

No, the big artists will only get bigger, because those are the artists that can afford to tour and have the backing of their labels. It'll just be harder for smaller acts to become bigger acts.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by apalmer on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @12:27PM (#6516025)
let me clarify, justin timberlake, drake, and britney will be fine, but the next generation 'justin timberlake' wont get the kind of massive funding necessary to make him a superstar across all demographics, social classes, genres.

as far the local/niche artists, i should clarify i don't think they will be doing 'better' than they do today.

i am instead looking at it from a fans point of view, instead of 100 next gen justin fans, i think they will be say 40 gen justin fans, 10 next gen r&b fans, 10 next gen power ballad fans, 10 next gen lounge crooner, etc...

I dont think the amount of music listened to is going to change, the margins for the companies and artists income will probably go down... but 'quality' of music will be the same as it always was

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by dobbsbob on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @09:30PM (#6518955)
Die Antwoord was a band nobody wanted or heard of until they uploaded this video to youtube http://youtu.be/cegdR0GiJl4

10 years ago they would've remained in obscurity in South Africa unable to tour because nobody would've backed them. Now they are playing stadiums. Being successful has nothing to do with funding anymore. Radio is gone, no longer need to grease the palms of every radio DJ in the US to get popular or bribe MTV.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by camus on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @04:59PM (#6517812)
There will always be money for the justin timberlakes, drakes, and britneys. But none for the Nirvanas , Pearl Jams or radioheads.
Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by angusangus on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @08:11PM (#6518715)
Nirvana, Pearl Jam and Radiohead made some of their best music without any major label deals or marketing budgets.

Extraordinary music does not require or benefit from commercial-scale budgets. It's always been made, and always will be, regardless of the economics.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by adamdavis on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @06:12PM (#6518178)
Is this sarcasm? I see no shortage of non-mainstream pop bands achieving more than their fair amount of success.

edit: a quick example off hand, The Arcade Fire

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by MichaelGG on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @03:56PM (#6517411)
What's the driving factor for local stars? I'd think that, as in many industries, big will get bigger. If you become a regional star, you'll probably go multi-regional. I'd be surprised if there'd be any major decline in huge pop stars. Even if they start off indie, one they gain enough traction, they'll be able to out-market others.

There's no reason e.g. YouTube couldn't have music competitions and new huge stars every year.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by fowkswe on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @12:46PM (#6516138)
To williamcotton's point, the business behind music promotion is alive. The business of music as a product is what is dying.

The fact that there is no product left to monetize the music means that there will be fewer musicians being funded. Only a few musicians will be chosen to promote and this will selectively be done such that they have a huge reach.

The mass marketed products like JT, Kanye (barf), Miley, etc will continue to be a part of the music business, as they always have, But the Luna's, Feelies, Grizzly Bear's (http://nymag.com/arts/popmusic/features/grizzly-bear-2012-10...), and myriad of other, small appeal bands are going to have a hard time sustaining themselves for the longterm with out a product to keep them afloat.

The live performance is the product now, but the problem is, is that this is actually hard work. This is why you see EDM musicians having a good time in the new music economy (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/09/30/130930fa_fact_... - paywal) - they are able to put on a show with minimal effort, to large crowds (i.e. big $$$).

I've seen so many awesome musician friends throw in the towel after a few years because they can't keep justifying theier profession. It's sad, but unfortunately the way its going to be.

Edit - this was the Grizzly Bear link I meant to use: http://www.vulture.com/2012/09/grizzly-bear-shields.html

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by Retric on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @11:55AM (#6515804)
Please explain what exactly musicians need significant investment money for? Studio time is a small fraction of what it used to be and simply practicing as a band is really cheap. You can argue that advertizing is still expencive but quality band can get the word out far more cheaply now than they used to.

The real issue for most band is there is a huge catalog of great music out there so standing out is simply harder now than ever before.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by sauce on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @05:55PM (#6518083)
> Please explain what exactly musicians need significant investment money for? Studio time is a small fraction of what it used to be and simply practicing as a band is really cheap.

How about rent? Also food, gas money to get to shows, merchandise (t-shirts/posters/hoodies/whatever), CDs (yes, you do still need to have these.. telling someone at a show who saw you for the first time ever and wants to hear more to "go look us up on facebook/soundcloud/twitter" isn't gonna cut it), gear (and gear repairs), advertising (including things like printing flyers out to promote shows), etc. Stepping it up a bit, if you're serious about touring, you'll need to bring additional crew besides the band itself, such as sound/lighting/merch people, roadies, etc. all of whom need to be paid, fed, and transported.

Even being able to practice as a band can get pretty expensive, if you consider that many neighborhoods/cities have really strict noise ordinance laws these days. So if you're trying to start even a moderately loud rock band, your options are a) try to practice in someone's house/garage and risk having to deal with $350+ noise violations on a weekly basis every time one of the neighbors gets cranky, or b) rent a practice space somewhere, which most places I know of start at $400/month upwards. Also note that in smaller towns where there isn't an abundance of unused commercial property, these spaces are either non-existent or have waitlists over a year and a half long.

Most musicians/bands out there don't have label support and get by paying for these things out of pocket (to a point, most bands are seriously skimping in one or more of these areas because they simply don't have the money or the manpower to make it happen). Not saying its impossible, but it certainly is extremely difficult to make it to the level of world-class musicians when the majority of your productive hours have to be spent in an unrelated field for the sole purpose of paying the bills.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by codex on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @11:46AM (#6515736)
Music will never die, and music is a form of mating display, so being a musician is good from a mating standpoint--it gets you laid. But the economics if the business have always been poor since the dawn of recorded music. If recorded music went away completely musicians would make a lot more from live shows.
Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by marquis on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @02:15PM (#6516762)
>music is a form of mating display

Hm, then why did I start learning the piano at age 6? Music is a form of communication and expression, and humans just tend to gravitate to people who are good at stuff we like (which make for good mating displays).

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by makmanalp on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @03:59PM (#6517431)
I'm not sure about the mating display thing but you probably started learning the piano at age 6 because your parents thought it was a good idea.
Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by marquis on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @06:30PM (#6518269)
In this case, very strongly my idea. No-one really knows why we play music - even musicians don't know. But I think it's about a form of expression, much like for many people they are compelled to enter conversation at least part of the day or week. I've yet to read a scientific or psychological explanation that fits but I have some pet theories that sound nice (that I wouldn't bet the bank on though).
Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by coldtea on Wednesday October 09, 2013 @05:09AM (#6520180)
>In this case, very strongly my idea. No-one really knows why we play music - even musicians don't know.

A lot of musicians I know, would not hesitate to mention "the opposite sex" as a major reason.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by codex on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @06:24PM (#6518242)
Communication is a little iffy as many artists don't write be understood; their lyrics are intentionally opaque so as to seem mysterious, and allow the listener to project onto them. Agreed that music is a form of expression, but so is smiling; the question is, why do human express themselves through music in first place, or through smiling? Why not express themselves through cartwheeling instead?

Darwin argued that both human song and bird song evolved as mating displays [1]

[1] ftp://ftp.repec.org/RePEc/els/esrcls/draftfin.pdf

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by marquis on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @06:33PM (#6518284)
I can't find the article to reference so take this with a grain of salt: in ancient times it is believed that song was a form of letting people know you were there, as in mothers cooing to their babies while grazing. That's a really pleasant idea to me, but I believe it's far more complex than that and music/sound can't be simplified down to a single evolutionary cause. As someone who loves sound is all it's glorious forms it's distasteful to me. Why would I be content to play the piano to only myself all day if it were something as base as for getting a better mate? It goes way deeper than that.
Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @06:36PM (#6518303)
> the question is, why do human express themselves through music in first place, or through smiling? Why not express themselves through cartwheeling instead?

Humans do express themselves through cartwheeling, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by coldtea on Wednesday October 09, 2013 @05:08AM (#6520175)
>Hm, then why did I start learning the piano at age 6?

Because your parents made you.

If you had made the decision to learn an instrument yourself, later in life, chances are "mating display" would play a huge role in that, and that the instrument would have been a guitar. Can't argue with statistics.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by marquis on Wednesday October 09, 2013 @08:57AM (#6520939)
Are you all assuming I'm a guy? Geez, there are really of lot of typical assumptions made here perhaps all based on pop/rock music (which I still think isn't so clearcut). I'm a trained classical pianist, which is usually something done by children well before the consideration of finding a mate is even part of the psyche and I insist that it took quite a matter to convince my parents that I was committed - not every classical musician comes from a middle class family and some of us had to work hard to achieve what we did. There is something extraordinary and powerful about playing and writing music, deeper in the way it affects me than anything else - and I love programming for the results-oriented buzz you get but when you play/write music? It's like getting right up close to the universe. This is a really personal issue for me and it's hard to think that people are looking at musicians on stage thinking it's a simple matter of fluffing their wings.

Kim Gordon had a fantastic quote: "People pay to see others believe in themselves." http://www.amazon.com/Lipstick-Traces-History-Twentieth-Anni...

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by coldtea on Wednesday October 09, 2013 @05:03AM (#6520157)
>Are you claiming that music is a dying art form? Really? The music industry is at best a 100 year old historical anomaly compared to the at least 4000 year history of music.

Well, we care about "popular recorded music" as last century knew it and that's a dying art form.

I'm sure Gregorian Chants and Peruvian Flute Music will continue to be written.

That's not what people complain about dying. People want Elvis, Beatles, Iggy Pop, Talking Heads, Madonna, Beastie Boys, Metallica etc -- with all the externalities that the way of them producing and selling music had.

Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by mistercow on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @11:37AM (#6515677)
Exactly. The music industry was never long for this world in the grand scheme of things. If you want to see a real threat to music as an art form, look to the trend we've seen over the decades of local governments trying to put a damper on busking. The good news is that technology will continue to create new ways for musicians to make a living.
Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by hipsters_unite on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @11:25AM (#6515572)
I don't think music is a dying art form, but the age of larger 'alternative' music having a look-in versus the lowest-common-denominator dross on the radio is definitely on its way out.
Re:Think piracy is killing the music industry? This chart su... by whiddershins on Tuesday October 08, 2013 @06:52PM (#6518378)
Yes. It is, just because the idea is unthinkable doesn't make it untrue.

http://gralbumcollective.com/about.html