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Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by kfk on Monday October 07, 2013 @07:47AM (#6507565)
The thing is, you have laws and tax laws and, for how unjust they might seem, a State has to enforce them, full stop.

However, users data. I don't know, there is a thin line between enforcing the law and not respecting citizens freedom and privacy.

The housing argument, instead, is just ludicrous. Let's put all the hotels in the city out in the suburbs then.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by buro9 on Monday October 07, 2013 @07:56AM (#6507596)
Users in this context are AirBNBs users, those letting their apartments short-term.

Which means that this is the State's hitlist of tax avoiders.

This is tax enforcement pure and simple, and doesn't seem to be a privacy issue. I've never heard of a reasonable defence against not paying tax being "that's my business and not yours", tax enforcement always wins.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by kfk on Monday October 07, 2013 @08:08AM (#6507639)
In Italy tax authorities have grown more and more powerful during the last years. At some point, they were suggesting checking all personal bank accounts and expenditures.

Think on the consequences of this.

By the way, in the AirBnB case, you can always have police pretending to rent flats to get the tax offenders. This would protect privacy and scare offenders.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by Xylakant on Monday October 07, 2013 @08:17AM (#6507669)
Or - gasp - AirBnB could collect and pay the tax on behalf of the flat owner. That would protect privacy and eliminate offenders.
Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by sitkack on Monday October 07, 2013 @08:32AM (#6507740)
But then AirBnB couldn't keep riding the ridiculous gravy train it is on. They are just front loading their bank account while claiming "this a new emerging market that we are all trying to figure out." at the expense of all users in the system.
Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by Fomite on Monday October 07, 2013 @08:47AM (#6507825)
Pretending taxes are someone else's problem is a grand dotcom tradition.
Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by triplesec on Monday October 07, 2013 @08:21AM (#6507685)
Nobody in Italy pays tax, which is why their finances are almost as bad as Greece's. And then there's ologarchs like Berlusconi, and the MAfia. Makes law requirements different
Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by roel_v on Monday October 07, 2013 @08:36AM (#6507759)
Hear hear. Italy is a textbook example of the reason we need some form of tax office with powers to check people's finances (as much as I hate to admit it): because otherwise nobody will pay taxes yet demand ever-increasing benefits from the government that somebody else has to pay for.
Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by CaptainZapp on Monday October 07, 2013 @10:24AM (#6508423)
Actually tax collection works quite well in Switzerland and even though tax declarations are based on self declaration (albeit based on an earning statement by the employer) tax evasion, or even - fraud is relatively low.

This is despite bank secrecy laws (which only apply in case of tax evasion, but not - fraud).

A big reason is simpleness of the tax declaration, transparency and - overall fairness of the tax code. Even though it's a rather progressive system.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by kfk on Monday October 07, 2013 @10:47AM (#6508560)
selectodude, it's not cultural in the way you think. It's cultural in the way that Italians have created a perverse system in which some people don't pay much taxes and many people pay a lot. It's not cultural in the sense that the single Italian is genetically born not to pay taxes.

It's a matter of incentives for the individuals, not culture.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by selectodude on Monday October 07, 2013 @10:46AM (#6508546)
I think it's just cultural more than anything. The simplicity of paying your taxes and the tax code there has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by kfk on Monday October 07, 2013 @08:28AM (#6507720)
This is absolutely not true. People pay taxes in Italy, actually, they have one of the highest tax burden in the world.

Do inform yourself a bit on the topic. It's way more complex than you think.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by dangerscarf on Monday October 07, 2013 @08:38AM (#6507779)
Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by kfk on Monday October 07, 2013 @09:01AM (#6507891)
It's both:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

There are people that do not pay taxes, but they are compensated by those who pay. The net effect is actually that the tax burden vs GDP in Italy is higher than in places like, say, Germany.

The reason Italy has a high public debt is not tax evasion, is excessive public spending. The reason many business are failing is not tax evasion, is a crazy tax law that kills many to reward few. That is why many Italian hate taxes, because they are unjust.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by triplesec on Monday October 07, 2013 @06:25PM (#6511726)
that's reasonable analysis, and my initila argument was deliberately simplisitc just to make a point, rather than to complexify Italian taxation systems. You and your interlocutors among you seem to have covered this nicely for anyone who was interested in the details (which I didn't have time for).
Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by riquito on Monday October 07, 2013 @10:20AM (#6508397)
"people pay taxes in Italy"

You wanted to say "some people", since a third of the people don't pay them (see the Uif research published in 2012). It's a huge number.

Do inform yourself a bit on the topic. It's way more easier than you think.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by kfk on Monday October 07, 2013 @10:42AM (#6508522)
Do read my comment below which explains better and do notice the quality of the comment I was answering to.
Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by jzzskijj on Monday October 07, 2013 @08:35AM (#6507756)
In Italy tax authorities have grown more and more powerful during the last years. At some point, they were suggesting checking all personal bank accounts and expenditures.

At least I've seen in a documentary where Italians tell they choose not to pay taxes. If there is a law to pay taxes and people can choose not to pay taxes, then some sort of enforcement has to be done. Especially because Italy's finances are in ruins and as an EU citizen I think it is Italians' responsibility to step up first, not EUs.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by DanBC on Monday October 07, 2013 @08:03AM (#6507624)
> The housing argument, instead, is just ludicrous. Let's put all the hotels in the city out in the suburbs then.

Hotels in cities have to obey laws about fire risk and hygiene and noise and etc etc. They have accountable people to take responsibility for their guests.

That could be true for many AirBnB hosts, but there appears to be some who just don't care about the neighbours.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by Lagged2Death on Monday October 07, 2013 @11:41AM (#6508937)
The thing is, you have laws and tax laws and, for how unjust they might seem, a State has to enforce them, full stop.

Well I just don't think that's so.

A tremendous number of technically illegal things are routinely ignored, downplayed, or considered low priorities for enforcement. Everybody goes a little over the speed limit; everybody jaywalks; genteel, expensive drug-dealing and prostitution are common enough; domestic violence and abuse in all its permutations is unpunished more often than not; and so on ad nauseam.

Law enforcement is always selective enforcement. There just aren't enough executive resources to do anything else.

Re:NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data by baddox on Monday October 07, 2013 @10:16AM (#6508365)
> The thing is, you have laws and tax laws and, for how unjust they might seem, a State has to enforce them, full stop.

The problem with this analysis is that a State also creates these laws and can change them.