News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by itchitawa on Saturday September 28, 2013 @07:48PM (#6463514)
Sadly, the word "free" always has strings attached. For GNU, the GPL license disallows "The freedom to make and distribute copies of your modified versions, when you wish." You're not allowed to attach non-free code or remove the over-complex license agreement, which can make the whole software useless for many purposes. It's not right to call GPL software free, it should rather be "no cost and slightly restricted use".
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by e12e on Saturday September 28, 2013 @07:59PM (#6463546)
I think the GPL is widely misunderstood by developers. The freedom the GPL is concerned with, and the reasoning behind it, is to preserve the rights and freedoms of the user.

That is, when you acquire a product (for free, or for a fee) -- it seeks to make sure that you can do use that product as you wish. And that if you re-sell it, or share it, those same rights are available for the next user down the line.

The GPL achieves this by bending copyright into copyleft. It is not concerned with allowing people to make money repackaging a piece of software and locking it down in various ways.

So, it is all about freedoms, just maybe not the freedoms that some developers thinks it is/should be about.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by curiousdannii on Saturday September 28, 2013 @11:16PM (#6463962)
I would say that the GPL is instead primarily concerned with the freedom of the software, not the authors or users. GPL software can never be taken hostage, even if that inconveniences every human who might want to use it. It's appropriate for some things, but not for everything.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by epistasis on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:06PM (#6463565)
What specific rights and freedoms does the user have with libre software that they do not with open source software?
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by thristian on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:13PM (#6463585)
Free or "libre" software is software that obeys the Four Freedoms. Much "open source" software is also Free software, but not necessarily all of it.

I'm not sure if this is still the case, but for a while Microsoft would provide source-code to the Windows NT kernel to universities and academic institutions; the source was open (for some definition of "open") but because Microsoft did not allow redistribution and modification, and only allowed the code to be used for educational purposes, it was not Free software.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by Nursie on Saturday September 28, 2013 @09:05PM (#6463692)
Developer A writes some code. Developer B makes device-specific alterations and puts it on a device. Consumer C buys the device.

If A GPL'd the software then C has a right to the exact code running on their device. This is not the case under other licenses that people like to call "more free".

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by Decade on Monday September 30, 2013 @05:16AM (#6468526)
Let's have a specific example. The Linux kernel. Technically, it's GPLv2, but in practice the copyright holders don't bother to enforce the copyright license. Linus Torvalds is the acme of "pragmatic" open source.

What right is missing: The ability to compile a new kernel for an embedded device. Qualcomm, Marvell, Broadcom, ARM, NVIDIA, and many others. They provide binary device drivers that work only with specific versions of the Linux kernel. Consequently, my home router has more computing power than my desktop 20 years ago, but my desktop was free to run any software and my router is just a router.

Also, Android devices almost never update, for the same reason.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by itchitawa on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:56PM (#6463672)
Yes, it's good for end users, but it's not complete freedom so GNU shouldn't make that claim then in the fine print add "...but some kinds of use are restricted." They should be more open and say "freedom for end users but not free to modify and distribute".
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by e12e on Saturday September 28, 2013 @10:50PM (#6463912)
But you are free to modify and distribute.

You just aren't free change the terms under which you distribute.

> "freedom for end users but not free to modify and distribute"

That would be: "freedom for end users, freedom to modify and distribute - but not freedom to change terms under which (re)distribution happens".

Which I think is pretty much what they are already saying?

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by quadrangle on Sunday September 29, 2013 @02:52AM (#6464373)
http://dustycloud.org/blog/field-guide-to-copyleft/

Just read it. If you want total abolition of copyright and proprietary software, fine. If you think proprietary software is ok, you are a total hypocrite to criticize copyleft. Period.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by NegativeK on Saturday September 28, 2013 @10:58PM (#6463926)
This is discussed frequently.

The BSD license grants you the freedom to restrict the freedoms of others.

The GPL license restricts your freedom to restrict the freedoms of others.

> It's not right to call GPL software free, it should rather be "no cost and slightly restricted use".

Is there anything that meets this definition of free? The BSD license doesn't grant this; software under it can have unlimited cost and no source code available.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by tjr on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:31PM (#6463628)
Sure: the GPL does not grant you the freedom to alter the license under which the software was given to you, nor to mix the software with other software under a conflicting license. To do either of those things would work against the freedoms that the GPL explicitly promotes.

Other licenses, such as the X11 license, let you embed the software into proprietary projects. So in that sense you are granted more freedom. But doing that denies other freedoms that the GPL explicitly grants.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by dllthomas on Sunday September 29, 2013 @12:49AM (#6464167)
You can absolutely mix GPL software and incompatably licensed software. What you cannot do is redistribute that combination.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by tjr on Sunday September 29, 2013 @07:37AM (#6464867)
Thank you! I was referring to redistribution, but was unclear.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by epistasis on Saturday September 28, 2013 @07:54PM (#6463530)
I wish he'd stop using the word "free" and only use "libre." The FSF and Stallman's definition of "free" (as it pertains to freedom) is not mine, and I have found few that actually agree with it. Open source's definition of freedom is far more universal, I believe. And using "libre" also gets around the "free as in pizza" distinction.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by chatman on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:04PM (#6463560)
Open source's definition is incomplete when it comes to protecting the freedom of users. And, libre doesn't imply "free as in pizza" to me.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by jlgreco on Saturday September 28, 2013 @09:28PM (#6463737)
> And, libre doesn't imply "free as in pizza" to me.

Probably because it is not suppose to....

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by vezzy-fnord on Saturday September 28, 2013 @10:06PM (#6463818)
That's because open source is not necessarily related to freedom. It's a purely pragmatic issue, though a core property of free software, but by itself it does not guarantee freedom.

Also, free beer > free pizza.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by dllthomas on Sunday September 29, 2013 @10:04AM (#6465201)
Gratis source once you've been (legitimately) given the binaries is a core property of free software. Gratis in general is a common but incidental property of free software.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by thejteam on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:01PM (#6463553)
I don't like "free" but I wouldn't want a new term to explain to a layperson either.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by kunai on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:57PM (#6463676)
Libre. Liberty.

Done.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by quadrangle on Sunday September 29, 2013 @02:54AM (#6464379)
Yeah, but remember, as long as others don't agree, it's tough. There's "free" "libre" and "open". The only answer is to say: THOSE THINGS. So, use "free/libre/open" i.e. FLO
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by Daishiman on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:58PM (#6463679)
That's more of a problem with the English language.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by elclanrs on Saturday September 28, 2013 @11:30PM (#6463997)
Right, gratis = free, libre = free.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by thejteam on Saturday September 28, 2013 @07:59PM (#6463547)
There is certainly a need for a radically simplified version of the GPL. The average person does not understand all of the ramifications of the license. Here's a scenario that hinders the distribution of open source software:

Teacher: Here, children. Here is some free software. Parent of child: Thanks. It is GPL. Give me the source. Teacher: Huh?

There needs to be a license that is similar to the GPL in scope but is readable and clear about what is required to a person who has never compiled software in their life and is not a lawyer. Open source projects need to realize that not everybody is a software engineer. Not everybody is up to date on the latest terminology. If they want laypeople to download and distribute code, make it easy to get. And above all, communicate clearly in language they can understand.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by thristian on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:08PM (#6463572)
Have you read the GPL? It uses fairly simple language, no legal jargon, and it's a lot shorter than some EULAs I've seen. I imagine a lot of people just mentally file it under 'legalese' and skip over it, but even a "simplified" GPL wouldn't prevent that.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by forrestthewoods on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:23PM (#6463611)
There are and continue to be wild disagreements over GPL and what it means. Is linking against a DLL considered a derived work? It depends on who you ask! Stallman thinks yes. Others think no.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by thristian on Saturday September 28, 2013 @09:02PM (#6463688)
Isn't that a vagueness in copyright law itself? You could avoid the vagueness by making the GPL stricter and more explicit, but that seems like the direct opposite of 'simplification'.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by Nursie on Saturday September 28, 2013 @09:12PM (#6463705)
It tends to be considered so by the people that write the GPL'd software. That's why the LGPL exists.

If you're looking for a way to use someone's software components against their wishes, and just looking for a legal way of doing so, then you may be right.

If you actually want to respect the wishes of the author OTOH...

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by dllthomas on Sunday September 29, 2013 @12:39AM (#6464151)
Making it more something regular people can read and understand would mean more arguments by lawyers (real and wannabe) over how far bits of it can be stretched.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by thejteam on Saturday September 28, 2013 @09:03PM (#6463689)
I agree that it is better than many EULAs, but that doesn't make it simple. At roughly 5000 words with a reading ease grade level of about 15(Flesch-Kincaid) it is not a document for the average person.

Doesn't even mean I disagree with most of the license, but it is unreasonable to expect people to understand it.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by tedunangst on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:10PM (#6463580)
That's a fun game to play. Go to a local Linux users group meeting. Borrow somebody's Debian DVD (someone always has one) and install on your laptop. Wait a year. Look that person up and demand they mail you the source for the exact binaries you installed a year ago.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by Nursie on Saturday September 28, 2013 @09:10PM (#6463699)
They have no obligation to do that. They can just send you links to the source.

You would certainly be making their lives difficult for no reason, in terms of tracking down software revisions. I guess if that's fun to you then ... whatever.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by tedunangst on Saturday September 28, 2013 @11:11PM (#6463949)
There have been kerfluffles in the past where people (companies) did exactly that. Gave someone a binary, then told them to download the source from somebody else. People got angry.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by e12e on Saturday September 28, 2013 @11:59PM (#6464069)
Yes. But Debian wouldn't be angry if you pointed to them.

In the past, it's been business entities that have distributed considerable a number of binaries (I believe one case was with code running on a router?) -- and charged quite a bit for that (bundle) -- and yet been too cheap to host a copy of the code online.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by dllthomas on Sunday September 29, 2013 @09:59AM (#6465192)
Usually those companies were shipping modified versions, and/or it wasn't possible to build your own modifications for the device. I don't recall an instance - though it may well just be that I'm ill informed - where "people got angry" just because a company wasn't mirroring something.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by jlgreco on Saturday September 28, 2013 @09:31PM (#6463743)
I wonder if any LUG attendee has ever hesitated to give somebody else a Debian disc for fear of that happening.

I suspect not.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by belorn on Saturday September 28, 2013 @11:19PM (#6463978)
You as a recipient of software can never demand the source code. That right is reserved for the copyright authors. At most, you can go and complain to the copyright owner, and they in turn can demand that the distributor provide source code.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by code_duck on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:11PM (#6463581)
That's an odd example. In that case, im pretty sure the teacher, who apparently has no idea about programming, could simply direct the parent to the website of the creators of this GPL software, where the source is available.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by thejteam on Saturday September 28, 2013 @08:37PM (#6463640)
Must be my age showing. When I was in school internet access wasn't common so if we needed to exchange software it was on floppy disks.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by code_duck on Sunday September 29, 2013 @09:02AM (#6465064)
Me too. There was no software of I'm any school I attended, ever. We had Minecraft on cartridge for the IBM PcJr., Oregon Trail for the Apple IIe, and that's about it. Even if my parents had asked for the source code to the janky lemonade stand game we played, the answer would have been the same - write the company.
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by yxhuvud on Sunday September 29, 2013 @02:42PM (#6466081)
Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by belorn on Saturday September 28, 2013 @10:46PM (#6463907)
The author of the above comment do not understand software licenses, and the whole commented is constructed around that confusion.

> You're not allowed to ... or remove the license agreement

No license agreement allows you as a recipient to ignore the license. At best, you can redistribute a "all right reserved" copyrighted work, while you yourself follows the license. At no point can you actually remove a license and then use it in a way that require authorized permission under copyright law.

You would also have a hard time finding such copyright license. Both BSD and MIT requires that the license are kept in all copies. Removing the license there would be as illegal as it would be to remove the GPL.

Simply put: if you get sued for copyright violation, its the license that the accused must raise in defense. Removing it is guarantied to be illegal except in rare situations such as wtfpl.

Re:Why Free Software Is More Important Now Than Ever Before by itchitawa on Saturday September 28, 2013 @11:40PM (#6464022)
I just discovered this is a popular political debate so shouldn't be in HN. I do understand how licenses work, just take issue with using the word "free" for something that has artificial restrictions. This comes from frustration of running up against brick walls of "no, you're not allowed to use our software for that" when I tried to use the so-called free software.