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Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by sker on Saturday August 31, 2013 @03:24AM (#6306091)
PR theater. After how these companies reacted to the initial leaks, I can't think of another possible scenario other than the CEOs sitting in a room with government officials discussing the best strategy for damage control, and the government giving them green light to sue. But I guess I'm just stating the obvious.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by MarcScott on Saturday August 31, 2013 @03:42AM (#6306125)
My thoughts exactly.

The post sought to position Microsoft and Google on the moral high ground, linking them to the values of the founding fathers.

If they wanted the moral high ground, they should have sued years ago. They've lost my trust, and no PR exercise is going to win it back.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by haberman on Saturday August 31, 2013 @01:33PM (#6307410)
> If they wanted the moral high ground, they should have sued years ago.

Google has received high marks from the EFF for fighting for users' privacy rights in the courts and in congress for three years:

https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2013

https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2012

https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2011

This lawsuit is just a continuation of what they have already been doing for years.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by MarcScott on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:29PM (#6307979)
The EFF report was compiled prior to the Snowden revelations. There is no star rating for "Allowing warrantless access to a user's data in contravention to the 4th Amendment". I should think in the current climate only Lavabit would receive a positive rating from the EFF.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by frank_boyd on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:41AM (#6306232)
Also, remember the initial reaction of the NSA partner companies when they were confronted about their mass surveillance activities for the first time?

They lied straight to our faces and thought we would just accept that and continue to buy and/or use their stuff.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by MichaelGG on Saturday August 31, 2013 @06:10AM (#6306398)
Please link to the lies. As far as I can tell, the line has always been "we comply with legal orders", "we do not offer direct access", "no one has our private keys/broken our encryption". The only contradiction is peoples' interpretation of vague "direct access" mention in a PowerPoint deck.

Microsoft reiterated their position, explained that yes, they review every order, they do not just dump data on all customers over some private link, the encryption is sound, but of course they need to hand over data they do have.

If I'm wrong on this, I'd certainly appreciate a correction.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by belorn on Saturday August 31, 2013 @09:50PM (#6308780)
They happen to omit that they got paid for delivering peoples private information to the NSA.

Its one thing to be forced to deliver some kind of information against your will. It something else if you do it like a shop, providing goods in return for revenue.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by gizmo686 on Saturday August 31, 2013 @11:09PM (#6308963)
Did they deliver private information without a legal order to do so? If they were legally obligated to do something which has a non-negligable cost, they are entitled to compensation. In the same way that you might have to pay for a FOIA request, because it costs money to provide the data.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by genwin on Sunday September 01, 2013 @12:08AM (#6309117)
Yes, if a factory is legally ordered to make a weapon to be used against innocents, of course they should both make it and get paid for that. The law is the law, and it costs money to make the weapon.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by D9u on Saturday August 31, 2013 @01:59PM (#6307505)
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by genwin on Saturday August 31, 2013 @11:58PM (#6309100)
If it walks like a duck... The NSA's Bluffdale UT facility is obviously built to handle more than a few thousand FISA requests. More like it could handle a quadrillion such "requests".
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by dylangs1030 on Saturday August 31, 2013 @03:49AM (#6306141)
How do you know it's just PR theater, and that these companies aren't just trying to legitimately defend their reputation? You dismiss the entire story and claim that it's so obvious, but how can any of us know that right now?

And, in the face of not knowing, why default to an explanation other than what has been given to us?

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by jbjohns on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:25AM (#6306207)
When it comes to security, your default position should always be one of extreme scepticism. Believing "what has been given to us" is what got us in this mess to begin with.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by dylangs1030 on Saturday August 31, 2013 @05:38PM (#6308222)
I understand what you mean, but I'm not opposed to extreme skepticism. It's alternative explanations that seem contrived that I'm opposed to.

There is a difference between extreme skepticism in the face of one story, and postulating hypothetical scenarios that have equal or higher burdens or proof, and are less likely or more difficult to demonstrate.

In fact, in terms of logic, the two are diametrically opposed.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by devx on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:34AM (#6306221)
Well it's obviously both. Why are they fighting against it now and not before? Because they fear losing customers. So how do they win or keep the customers? With "PR battles" such as these.

I'm sure they want to win these cases, but they wouldn't do this in complete secret, would they? They want the public to know about it, hoping this way it gets them to gain a tiny bit of trust back.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by grandalf on Saturday August 31, 2013 @12:39PM (#6307238)
The time to file a lawsuit was years ago when the programs started. Google and Microsoft are now in the same category of privatized government "partners" as Halliburton and Lockheed.

This goes beyond simple diffusion of responsibility, leaders at Google and Microsoft were complicit in the crimes the NSA committed and did nothing to stop them.

IBM was able to eventually live down its involvement in the holocaust. In today's world there is no excuse for a modern tech company led by wealthy, enlightened people to commit these kinds of wrongs. Ironically, it's as if Google's mantra became "Be Evil".

Such doings (empowering the NSA, IRS, etc. to snoop on innocent people for the express purpose of entrapping them or contriving other evidence) are pretty much the definition of exactly the kind of insidious evil that one would hope to be able to trust its service providers not to engage in.

My prediction is that within a few months as viable open source alternatives for Google and Microsoft services become available, we'll see lots of people leaving their cloud platforms/services.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by ptwiggens on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:14PM (#6307925)
Google has been suing for years. One of the few companies who has consistently gone to court for users privacy.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by grandalf on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:31PM (#6307989)
But no individual at Google felt that even an anonymous tip to a reporter about the program was warranted? Doesn't add up.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by dylangs1030 on Saturday August 31, 2013 @05:36PM (#6308214)
What makes you think the majority of Google employees had any idea this was going on? We have the testimony of several Google employees who comment here on Hacker News that there was no indication any of this was happening.

Then there's the news report that corroborates this, implying not even the leaders of the companies had any idea.

I mean, again, they could all be lying...but Occam's Razor and all that.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by yuhong on Saturday August 31, 2013 @11:41PM (#6309055)
I wrote this in an attempt to trace the problem: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6078124
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by davidw on Saturday August 31, 2013 @05:22PM (#6308173)
Maybe the world is a bit more random than one in which overarching conspiracies rule everything. Snowden was pretty random, no? He could have stayed put and sold his data, or simply kept his mouth shut, but he did what he did when he did it. There are a lot of other people working there, and none of them were the ones to expose all of that crap. So maybe the people at Google valued their jobs more than doing the right thing. That hardly makes for some big plot.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by thrownaway2424 on Saturday August 31, 2013 @10:55PM (#6308931)
Your statement only makes sense if you make the logical leap that Google does the things you are implying they do. The fact that none of Google's 100k+ employees and former employees have ever leaked anything of this nature is a strong indicator that it's not actually happening.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by grandalf on Sunday September 01, 2013 @12:02AM (#6309105)
Perhaps, but then how do you explain the history of lawsuits?
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by frenger on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:20AM (#6306196)
"And, in the face of not knowing, why default to an explanation other than what has been given to us?"

gut feeling based on existing evidence and experience.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by d4nt on Saturday August 31, 2013 @03:47AM (#6306134)
But this is the public debate that Snowdon called for. The leaks put pressure on tech companies to defend their reputation and when they do, each new development keeps the story going.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by enraged_camel on Saturday August 31, 2013 @08:36AM (#6306676)
What public debate are you talking about? Look around you. Do you see anyone besides techies and the libertarian fringe talking about eternal and perpetual surveillance? I sure as hell don't.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by javajosh on Saturday August 31, 2013 @11:40AM (#6307058)
This, Hacker News, is public debate. Don't discount that just because it's not CNN or The New York Times. (Or because pg or his minions can edit/delete content at their whim, which has happened to me before).

As time goes on the less and less reliable I find the media to be when gauging public sentiment. 90% of the people I've talked to about the NSA scandal, all across the political spectrum, have been horrified by the government's behavior. As depressed as I get watching the poor news coverage of the scandal, and the implication that people don't care about it, or are more concerned with "getting Snowden" than what he revealed, just simply talking to people makes me feel a lot better.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by enraged_camel on Monday September 02, 2013 @06:49PM (#6317647)
>>This, Hacker News, is public debate.

Yes, it is "public debate" in the sense that it is a debate that is taking place on a public forum. That wasn't my point.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by DerpObvious on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:51PM (#6308038)
> Do you see anyone besides techies and the libertarian fringe talking about eternal and perpetual surveillance?

Just last night, I was asked about the leaks by a 50/60ish bus driver after mentioning I worked in tech - who as far as I could tell, had no particular previous inclination towards privacy activism or technology.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by juzfoo on Saturday August 31, 2013 @08:55AM (#6306712)
I just had a conference call with one of the clients on a project which he wanted to talk about. He wasnt very keen to share the docs on the google(he is into NDA and all that), but he was okay sharing that on Skype because skype is peer to peer. The point is everyone who matters enough knows about what was going on to make enough impact on the business of these tech companies. They may not be on the street demanding, but they are mulling over the consequences and alternatives regardless.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by infinite8s on Saturday August 31, 2013 @10:41AM (#6306910)
Except that he was misinformed. Skype started relaying through a central server after Microsoft purchased it and is no longer peer-to-peer.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by ptwiggens on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:13PM (#6307917)
Skype specifically refuted that rumor after it came out. That being said, based on everything that has come out in Snowden's documents and other reporting, I now believe all Skype communications are compromised.
Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by sixothree on Saturday August 31, 2013 @09:48AM (#6306811)
They would not be suing if they were expecting any sort of major defeat. It would destroy their reputation further. So yes, they have already consulted with the government on this.

We should expect a very limited amount of carefully parsed information to be revealed as a result of this suit. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by frank_boyd on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:35AM (#6306222)
> Microsoft and Google are to sue the US government to win the right to reveal more information about official requests for user data.

Totally irrelevant, because:

We know for a fact that the NSA has installed hardware at all these companies (Microsoft/Skype, Google, Apple, Facebook, AOL, Paltalk, etc.). They don't need to put in any official requests for user data to get the data.

Furthermore, we also know that 75% of all communication data is being intercepted/covered by the NSA (today! Work in progress...). Why would any official requests for user data be relevant, given these circumstances?

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by MichaelGG on Saturday August 31, 2013 @06:12AM (#6306403)
Citation for "the NSA has installed hardware"? Google has explicitly denied this. If they've retracted that statement, I'd love to see it.

The NSA has installed hardware on cables, but that's been known for nearly a decade. Intercepting unencrypted communications isn't much of a feat. It just takes some time and money.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by frank_boyd on Saturday August 31, 2013 @12:43PM (#6307253)
Here's just 1 example regarding Microsoft and Skype: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-c...

> Another newsletter entry stated that NSA already had pre-encryption access to Outlook email. "For Prism collection against Hotmail, Live, and Outlook.com emails will be unaffected because Prism collects this data prior to encryption."

> Microsoft's co-operation was not limited to Outlook.com. An entry dated 8 April 2013 describes how the company worked "for many months" with the FBI – which acts as the liaison between the intelligence agencies and Silicon Valley on Prism – to allow Prism access without separate authorization to its cloud storage service SkyDrive.

Would you honestly believe the NSA would want that from a company like Microsoft but not from a company like Google (whose main activity consists of the collection of data in order to build the most precise user profiles to advance the targeting of their ads = ROI)?

The installations were also mentioned in the slides published by the Guardian, you should read all of them.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by MichaelGG on Saturday August 31, 2013 @05:57PM (#6308283)
I addressed that specific "example". There is nothing in there except spin. Do you think Microsoft should refuse a lawful order that compels them to hand over email?

This also in no way indicates any sort of hardware. Microsoft replied and made it clear they review each order, then comply as required. Perhaps they have a fast review and quick compliance system (if you got as many requests as they do, you'd do the same or close shop).

None of the documents released indicate any sort of hardware installation. Provide specific cites. As-is, you and other folks saying these things are muddying the waters. When the dust settles, it'll be clear there wasn't super-duper decrypto hardware secretly placed all over Microsoft's internal software. Then people will say "oh, they were just lying" and ignore the real issues of oversight, legality, and so on.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by lutusp on Saturday August 31, 2013 @04:43AM (#6306242)
>> Microsoft and Google are to sue the US government to win the right to reveal more information about official requests for user data.

> Totally irrelevant ...

Irrelevant only to people who don't understand politics. The NSA isn't asking for cooperation from these companies because they actually need it, but because it provides political cover. In the * * itstorm that will surely result from future revelations of spying on U.S. citizens, the NSA can honestly say, "These companies cooperated in data collection."

> Why would any official requests for user data be relevant, given these circumstances?

As is often said, you may not care about politics, but politics cares about you.

Re:Microsoft and Google to sue over US surveillance requests by costapopescu on Saturday August 31, 2013 @09:33PM (#6308754)
Exactly, its damage control. If they wanted to reveal more information about requests for user data, they could leak it anonymously.