I lived once with 6 indians that came to Brazil on a contract.

One wanted to learn portuguese, and knew english really really well, and loved to talk (also he knew like 6 indian dialects, he really liked languages), and he was married.

Talking with him, and later with the others when he was nearby, I learned that this is a kind of new thing, and they are confused...

Seemly the merging of a traditional patriarchal culture with the western materialistic culture led to this weird bizarre culture where women are not seen as human anymore (and the lack of women because of female infanticide do not help either)

EDIT: And yes, they are curious, and are not shy about it, also they loved museums a lot... They visited in 4 months more museums here in Brazil than I ever did in my whole life.

>Seemly the merging of a traditional patriarchal culture

which wasn't a piece of cake either, reminded me about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoolan_Devi

I totally disagree to, "that this type of looking and curiosity is part of how Indians generally are." Indians or for the matter of fact every human being is curious. But the stares described are not of curiosity but of lust, of wanting that body to satisfy a temporarily desire and then to boast about it to the friends. The biggest reason for such behaviour is the lack of respect that is given to a female in the Indian society. For every male god, there is an equally powerful or even more powerful a female god and we (quite a lot) Indians will go every day to the temple to ask the lady god for fulfillment of wishes but as soon as we are home we treat our wife, mother, sister with no respect at all.

Not only the males are to be blamed for turning India into a male society but also women. There are many (hell lot) women in India who want a son (still do not understand the reason). If they have a girl and a boy and no matter how good the girl is when compared to the boy, the boy will always get more love and attention.

I am an Indian and have lived all my life here and in many parts of the wonderful country. But it makes me sad to see the state we are going into.

I agree with most of what you say. There's just one point I want add.

I have been to India and the US multiple times. If I judged the US, just based on my experiences living in downtown Detroit or Newark I would never visit the US ever again. Just thinking about the things I experienced gives me the shivers.

I have seen this culture of misogyny and treating women as sexual objects in almost all places in India I have lived in. Not trying to counter your point, just saying that this observation could have been written by a woman who spent her time in Kolkata/Chennai/Bangalore/Mumbai rather than in Pune. In fact Pune in some respects is much better than some of the cities I mentioned above.

I agree. But just a word of caution, if we are talking about misogyny and treating women as sexual objects, lets also talk about the porn industry(which today is as responsible for the existence of the internet, as advertising is for Google).

Is there a difference when the developed world spends countless hours objectifying women from the safety of their homes through technology?

Looking at pictures and movies of women voluntarily engaged in sex acts is in no way equivalent to groping them in the street, attempting to rape them or depersonalising them and treating them as objects.

It's just not.

Forgeting about the india comparison for a sec, there are degrees of 'voluntary.' There are no girls out there who think that they want to be in porn when they grow up.

A friend of mine did want to go into porn as a young teen. She decided not to one she was old enough, because it did not pay enough. There are a lot of people out there and most of them don't think like you do.

I suspect that few people grow up wanting to be gas station attendants either. I grew up wanting to be a test pilot, that didn't work out but I am certainly in my current field entirely voluntarily.

As far as I know, there are no documentaries made about how it sucks to be a gas attendant.

Maybe that means it doesn't suck to be a gas attendant, or maybe that means everybody knows it sucks to be a gas attendant, or maybe that just means that nobody gives a shit about gas attendants at all.

One of those degrees is definitely "sure, that sounds like a turnon." There is certainly legitimate exploitation, but it's not like Paris Hilton did it to make rent.

Porn is definitely a sensitive subject around here.

I have been down voted into oblivion before for bringing it up. I guess the accepted opinion around here is as long as women get paid to be objectified its all cool. And ofcourse there are no effects of such objectification on any of the minds that make up this enlightened society.

EDIT: Pretty sure everyone arguing for there being a big difference thinks things like Steubenville are just random events too.

Sorry, widespread assault and the experience described in the article are in no way the same as the everyday experiences of women in the western world. If you think they are you're delusional.

I didn't say it was awesome, I said it wasn't the same as assault and possible rape.

I will bite. Women in Pornography are paid to do that (mostly). Women who get raped on the streets of Delhi aren't paid to do that.

Right. Objectifying women is okay as long as they get paid. And I guess in this fantasyland rape never happens too.

Nice. Way to miss the fucking point. Let me break it down for you. The article was an article on sexual harassment and rape in a specific country. Not this country. A different country. Totally different cultural values, objectives. You rambled on about two completely different issues:

1. The "developed world" and objectification of women here.

2. Pornography and the porn industry.

The developed world, its issues are irrelevant here. Every time, a god damn article comes about something wrong in the third world, it is not necessary to bring up this world. It conflates the issue and introduces moral relativism. Sure there is female infanticide and female genital mutilation but HEY, women in tech in the bay area get shafted too. That in essence is the argument being made.

To address the other issues of your muddled argument. Sure pornography might involve objectifying women. Sure it might be a bad thing. Sure someone must do something about it. Guess what? It is fucking irrelevant here. This is about women who go to a country and expect not to get raped.

I think next time, I should just down vote and move on, instead of spending my time arguing online.

A whole lot of comments take the tone, this kind of stuff only happens "over there". I found it relevant to point out this isn't exactly true. Please go look at the Steubenville case and ask yourself is there really a difference.

Anyway for anyone interested in a much more intelligent discussion than what we will ever have here check out - http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/BeastNe

The problem in practical terms is a semi-slavery view of women in public. Men and women in porn movies are objectified but not coerced into it, whereas assault is coercion.

It may be interesting to hear that story as well.

All the upvotes in the world for this:

>There's a culture supporting this (which is not to say that Indians as a people do) and it needs to be dragged into the light of day and shot.

Perhaps we should add a few more countries while we are at this game.

I'll bite first.

Egypt.

DISTURBING CONTENT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtPQvhNqNFY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yua66_tlBG8

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/jul/02/jour...

> or a woman it must be extra difficult to accept - and that's just the stares. The lack of respect for her space may be part of the collectivism that arises with incredible density

I think it is not even close. She was groped and touched. That is sexual assault. It is not rape, but there are cases of Peace Corps volunteers getting raped. Chucking that up to culture is, perhaps trying a little too hard to defend it. If that is is the culture (I imagine it is just "culture" in poor and uneducated parts, much like it would be in a trailer park in Mississippi perhaps) well then fuck that culture it is wrong.

I've traveled all over the world, from South America, India, to China. In all those places, the locals stare and take photos. They stare at me, also a redhead; they stare at my girlfriend, who is from LA and dresses like it. Unlike this sheltered author, when the kids take photos of us, the white ghosts, faragn, or gringos, we don't assume they're going to use it for porn. We're often the only white couple in the town. Sometimes they've never seen white people. It's what they do.

When my gf was alone in India, she had guys come on to her a few times, but she said it was nothing compared to the aggressive behavior we encountered in Columbia and Cambodia.

People like Rose Chasm, should stay in their small American towns. Someone with such vivid imagination and fragile psyche has no business traveling in 3rd world countries.

I grew up in a poor part of Easter Europe. Alcoholism, poverty, despair was around. It wasn't Africa, and there are lots, lots worse places in the world. We might not have always had enough food to eat, but we were lucky to have what we had.

It is important to recognize when you are not safe and to know how to diffuse the situation and escape. In some of those places it could go from staring to stabbing quickly. Let's just say I had to act "crazy" a couple of times in order to be deemed not worth to bother with (this is a good strategy btw if you are by yourself in a bind)

I can't judge of course for you, I wasn't there. But you perhaps underestimate the danger because you were with her. You are also not a woman. It is different for a single woman.

When I travelled Indua with my wife she would not be touched but it constantly happend to all single women we met. I believe the men just saw her as my property thus expecting me to retaliate. What they did not understand was how a women could not be tied to a man.

You may have stopped reading my comment a little early, as it echoes your sentiments exactly after the portion you quote.

Sorry, If you had a bad experience in our country.

Most people stare basically out of uncontrolled curiosity. In fact you get similar stares if you were to look differently than we do like for example say Chinese, African etc. This isn't just limited to white individuals but anybody in general.

Situation in many parts of Bangalore is better. The solution to this problem is to let both our cultures mingle more, than just stay in isolation.

To add to your comment: Even Indians who grow up in cities get the same kind of stares when they visit villages. As an young child every year when my siblings and I visit a tiny village where my parents grew up, there are always people who live around the neighborhood peeping through our doors to see who has arrived and what we were up to. Even when we walk in the muddy roads or ride in an ox-cart to visit the farms,we noticed everyone lines up on the road to watch us.

And of course, this is more pronounced for woman. This is also part of Indian culture(good or bad).

But, this part of mannerism does not discount the extreme harassment the OP has experienced.

>This is also part of Indian culture(good or bad). How is it good? Btw just because a lot of people practice a gross behavior doesn't make it part of the culture. I hate it when people give excuses for behavior by saying it is "cultural". By the same logic, Bride burning, dowry and female foeticide is also practiced, Do you also consider it a part of the culture?

The main problem is with the level of education and mannerism 90% of the indians posses. These people are always in fear of god and trapped by their religions. They are not enlightened enough to make all the logical decisions themselves which causes the main problem. They try to objectify anything and everything they see. It's like a hungry man stealing food from shop. Without education and knowledge every society is equal to animals.

Even the highly educated in India go around temples and follow all superstitious beliefs. My parents quote examples of Indian scientists at NASA and their superstitious beliefs to make me believe in religion and the super powers. Their reasoning being there are smart people at NASA who follow the astrological calendar when it comes to events at their homes. So, I doubt education alone makes a person better. Character building and rational thinking is whole another ball game where Indian education falls short.

Ok, when I said it is part of culture I did not by any means justify the behavior. Cultural habits have their own downsides and upsides. They also evolve. So, right now that is the state. I wish it got better. If my comment sounded like I supported that behavior, I would like to make it clear that intent of the comment was not that.