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Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by Rudism on Monday August 19, 2013 @01:37PM (#6238476)
Forgive me if I'm just being ignorant on the matter (I'm not super familiar with Bitcoin), but wasn't one of the founding principles of Bitcoin the idea that it wasn't/wouldn't be regulated?
Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by lmkg on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:01PM (#6238966)
Ehhh... One of the founding principles was that it doesn't have a central issuing authority. The supply of bitcoin can't be controlled, which makes it immune to politically-convenient devaluation or debasement, unlike government-issued fiat currency. Or in laymen's terms: The fed can't just print more bitcoins.

Starting from the above, an extended game of Telephone resulted in some people thinking that Bitcoin can't be regulated at all. This is a silly belief.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by cracker_jacks on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:26PM (#6239165)
Can you explain how can bitcoin be regulated? Regulation defined as the ability to control transactions.
Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by brazzy on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:43PM (#6239293)
The same way transactions in any other currency are controlled: by making laws that say what you must and cannot do and what penalties apply if you don't comply.
Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by cracker_jacks on Monday August 19, 2013 @04:33PM (#6239603)
You can regulate things around bitcoin (ie exchanges), but you have no direct control of whether or not a wallet is able make transactions. You can't freeze a bitcoin address and associating an address to a real-world identity would be easily circumvented.
Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by brazzy on Monday August 19, 2013 @08:16PM (#6240782)
Indirect control of the form "you broke this law and go to jail" is perfectly sufficient. And it is in fact attempts to disassociate addresses and real world identities that are easily circumvented when you have the resources of a government.
Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by dragonwriter on Monday August 19, 2013 @04:34PM (#6239613)
> You can regulate things around bitcoin (ie exchanges), but you have no direct control of whether or not a wallet is able make transactions.

In this respect, this is no different than most things government regulates, including money-in-the-form-of-coins-and-scraps-of-paper.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by cracker_jacks on Monday August 19, 2013 @04:50PM (#6239725)
The difference is ease, physical currency is much harder to break apart and move around in large sums without eventually going through something the government regulates. If you kept your transactions entirely in bitcoin, I do not see how anyone could control what you do.
Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by Myrth on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:42PM (#6239286)
> Regulation defined as the ability to control transactions.

I'm not sure where would you get this definition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation

> Regulation may refer to the following:

> A process of the promulgation, monitoring, and enforcement of rules, established by primary and/or delegated legislation.

> A written instrument containing rules having the force of law.

In this context they talk about monitoring and enforcing companies' use of bitcoins within legal system.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by cinquemb on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:51PM (#6239341)
In this context they talk about monitoring and enforcing companies' use of bitcoins within legal system.

As `mrb said here, it is not very clear since it explicitly is dealing with bitcoin exchanges: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6238754

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by vl on Monday August 19, 2013 @04:54PM (#6239755)
>The fed can't just print more bitcoins.

Mmm, they kinda can: they can deploy a large cluster, let's say 90% of capacity, hoard mined coins, then release them at once - booms, effect is not that different from printing.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by oleganza on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:01PM (#6238971)
Once the person sells euros for bitcoins, he can spend these coins much more easily anywhere. He can:

1. Mix coins with others to make it impossible to trace where he spends them.

2. Pay someone for labour.

3. Buy any digital product or service online from anyone in the world.

4. Buy something delivered to his door via postal service.

5. Pay for small purchases like with cash.

6. Buy some assets in another country.

Each of these activities are really hard to monitor or affect.

Some activities are easier to regulate. If you are going to buy some AAPL shares or a house, you'd have to tell government something about yourself or the source of your income.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by cinquemb on Monday August 19, 2013 @01:44PM (#6238504)
When you want to establish a business that trades between bitcoins and typical fiat, you are going to be regulated (maybe even just being a business would enable a government to d̶e̶m̶a̶n̶d̶ accept bitcoins as an income tax payment if such a business didn't trade between currencies).

As an individual trading and accepting bitcoins for goods with other individuals, you would be out of the scope of regulation, and because of the nature of bitcoins, you could make it scale to business like levels.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by yxhuvud on Monday August 19, 2013 @01:54PM (#6238573)
Nothing stops the state for demanding tax payments in normal money regardless of if the income is in normal money or not.

This do happen in real life quite often when people are not paid in cash.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by cinquemb on Monday August 19, 2013 @02:05PM (#6238652)
Maybe for business/organizations that declare what they made to the state in the first place. But how does the state demand for something of which they did not know took place between individuals? By going around pricing the market value of everyone's assets and demanding payment in they way they want or get thrown in prison? Or by going around to individuals singled out by incumbents?
Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by mpyne on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:11PM (#6239048)
They do this the same way they demand taxes on payments made only in cash today. Is it foolproof? No, but it doesn't have to be, just as taxes still ended up coming in somehow even when business ran mostly on cash and cheques.

In this case the blockchain is visible for all to see, including the governments, and they only have to resolve the true identity of someone once to be right for all time.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by cinquemb on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:26PM (#6239160)
For business it will be the same as it always has been: You are naturally under the regulation, effective or not, bitcoins or not, of government when you establish oneself as a business. They can use the blockchain to help, but let us not pretend that in itself is a panacea to taxation required for the gears to keep grinding on in the central banking/ governmental taxation systems (which even under loads pre bitcoin, were faltering).

But for individuals, one can create as many wallets as they wish, use as many laundering clients over tor, to remain out of reach. Which is exactly why governments have to set up honey pots to confiscate bitcoins on sites like the silk road (which end up not being effective deterrents and end up being outed as such by the community that relies/favors on reputable past trades). I suspect business/organizations can employ similar technologies to reduce their taxation and how much they declare.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by joe_the_user on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:03PM (#6238984)
When you want to establish a business that trades between bitcoins and typical fiat, you are going to be regulated.

Yes, that is what the state does.

As an individual trading and accepting bitcoins for goods with other individuals, you would be out of the scope of regulation, and because of the nature of bitcoins, you could make it scale to business like levels.

Yeah but your chances of running such a business and, say, not collecting the sales taxes for your area just went down a few notches. Bitcoin transactions are public, more public than, say, paper currency transactions.

And to answer the gp's original question, this does contradict the original intention of bitcoins. Failed or succesful, bitcoins are losing the specialness that was their original pull. Well, suck on it. The original intention was a la, la land phantasy, a fundamentally impossible Libertarian Party wet-dream.

Bitcoinist never figured out whether their cry was "they can't stop us", "they won't (try to) stop us" or "they shouldn't stop us". The result - the state clearly can stop bitcoin but so prefers to just control it.

I had imagined the whole thing would just collapse but I suppose it may just wind-up a fully regulated cash transfer system. But money still depends on the state.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by jlgreco on Monday August 19, 2013 @02:49PM (#6238876)
Personally held bitcoins are not regulated in the same way that personally held cash is not regulated. That is to say, it is regulated... but (depending on how you acquire/spend your bitcoins or cash) it works on the honor system.

Think of waiters receiving cash tips.

Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by joe_the_user on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:06PM (#6239005)
Paper money is private. Bitcoins are public (connecting wallets to people is a challenge but with whole Internet tapped, maybe not a huge challenge).
Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by jlgreco on Monday August 19, 2013 @04:08PM (#6239446)
Hence the "(depending on how you acquire/spend your bitcoins or cash)". With bitcoin it is much harder to keep your identity unconnected from your wallet (particularly if you want to do anything with it), though it is possible.
Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by cinquemb on Monday August 19, 2013 @03:15PM (#6239076)
If one considers that the vast majority of people don't go through the lengths to remain pseudonymous on the web, connecting identities to wallets will (eventually) be trivial for the mainstream. However, I find it the case that as of now, that is inversely proportional to the people that use bitcoin. Not to mention all the laundry services out there or that could be placed on the front end of services used through tor (and possibly meshnets in the future).
Re:Germany Sets Standard for Bitcoin Regulation by PeterisP on Tuesday August 20, 2013 @02:31PM (#6245632)
And just as with cash income, attempting to launder bitcoin income turns it from a fine for undeclared income to a prison term for money laundering/intentional tax evasion.