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Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by droithomme on Saturday August 17, 2013 @12:38PM (#6229522)
Isn't this a protection-money racket (extortion) from a legal perspective?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket

> "Extortion is a criminal offense of unlawfully obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion."

> "In the United States, extortion may also be committed as a federal crime across a computer system, phone, by mail or in using any instrument of interstate commerce."

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/business-career/legal/what-...

> "What is Extortion? The use of threats to extract money from people is a crime in the United States..."

> "Which Kinds of Threats are Illegal? One common characteristic of extortion is the use of threats, that is, an express intention to inflict injury, loss, or some other bad consequence on another person. The threat has to be sufficiently plausible and imminent that it could convince a reasonable person to give in to the blackmailer’s demands. In addition, there has to be some evidence that the threat was actually made for the purpose of obtaining money or property."

http://www.orbankruptcy.com/newsletters/criminal-law/federal...

> "A person commits the federal offense of extortion if he or she transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any demand or request for ransom or for a reward for the release of a kidnapped person, any threat to kidnap or injure another person, or any threat to injure the property or reputation of another person or to accuse another person of a crime with the intent to extort."

Now that one specifically mentions that threats to injure persons, property or reputation qualify as extortion when done to get money from someone.

Here is the actual federal law:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/875

> "Whoever, with intent to extort from any person, firm, association, or corporation, any money or other thing of value, transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to injure the property or reputation of the addressee or of another or the reputation of a deceased person or any threat to accuse the addressee or any other person of a crime, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."

It seems very clear that that is what has happened here.

But if this form of threat by a Groupon employee to extract money from people is not extortion, what is the subtle difference that would enable such threats to be considered non-criminal?

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by jeremybencken on Saturday August 17, 2013 @12:45PM (#6229551)
This isn't a story about Groupon except insofar as they hire unprofessional, immature sales reps.

The sales punk didn't like how he was treated, so he gets revenge by (threatening) to leverage his own personal network.

It's pretty unlikely this is some organized practice at Groupon.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by a3n on Saturday August 17, 2013 @12:49PM (#6229565)
It doesn't have to be organized. There just has to be a "results at any cost, don't tell me how you did it" atmosphere at Groupon.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by lancewiggs on Saturday August 17, 2013 @08:20PM (#6230966)
It is a story about Groupon. How can they let their staff get into this situation where they are so desperate as to make threats? How did they not know about and fix the poor experience with Groupon previously? How are the staff paid - is the commission component so high that they have to make sales no matter what? Is the training and are the SOPs so poor that the staff are free to operate on the edges of legality?

Is the culture such that anything goes?

Are the systems that review performance of sales reps not catching up with this sort of behaviour?

Groupon allowed this to happen, and it's for Groupon to fix.

Firing the guy would be a knee jerk reaction that would not to me be the right one. Not firing him and doing nothing would be worse. The best answer is a blame-free full review of how this occurred, and how they can design their organisation and process to make it never occur again.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by bdcravens on Saturday August 17, 2013 @08:59PM (#6231082)
I don't correct it's correct to blame practices like these on the employer's business model. That's like blaming road rage killings on the government for having congested roads.

Sounds to me like it's a kid barely out of college who can't control his emotions and is having a pouty hissy fit. His emotional age obviously is not advanced enough to prepare him for sales.

If you want to blame anything, blame the culture (Web 2.0? SF? VC funded world?) that believes that younger is always better.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by nemothekid on Sunday August 18, 2013 @12:34AM (#6231658)
I fail to see how this has anything to do with his age. There are assholes at all stages of life.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by bdcravens on Sunday August 18, 2013 @01:19AM (#6231741)
I chose the term "emotional age" carefully for that reason.

That said, if we were talking about hiring a node.js dev, and comparing a 22 year old vs. a 57 year old, would "I fail to see how this has anything to do with his age. There are great developers at all stages of life." be applicable as well? Or would it reasonable to make some generalizations while appreciating exceptions?

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by guelo on Saturday August 17, 2013 @06:10PM (#6230536)
Except for the part where Groupon refuses to remove the guy from their harass list.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by fnordfnordfnord on Saturday August 17, 2013 @02:27PM (#6229861)
Title says "Groupon Sales Rep..." Was it changed?
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by gregman on Saturday August 17, 2013 @05:10PM (#6230389)
Nope. Title is exactly the same as it was posted originally (except for "yelp" being capitalized to "Yelp").
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by ulisesrmzroche on Saturday August 17, 2013 @02:08PM (#6229800)
That's true but what a huge PR blow, plus they hired the guy in the first place. This could get ugly if something isn't done right away.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by cabalamat on Saturday August 17, 2013 @03:58PM (#6230178)
> This could get ugly if something isn't done right away.

What might happen: front page of Reddit, followed by the guy being sacked shortly afterwards.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by ulisesrmzroche on Saturday August 17, 2013 @04:16PM (#6230237)
True. Isn't anyone from Groupon reading HN? I thought they'd pull a Nathan Bedford Forrest and get in here the fastest with the mostest mea culpa, but so far, I don't even think they know what's going on.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by tptacek on Saturday August 17, 2013 @01:03PM (#6229616)
It might not be extortion, because one of the elements of extortion is coercion, and the sales rep's mail wasn't coercive, but instead spiteful.

Had the rep instead said "maybe all this could be avoided if you would simply make the time to talk to me for 15 minutes on the phone tomorrow", it might be more cut-and-dry.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by arbuge on Saturday August 17, 2013 @07:30PM (#6230768)
That is so strongly implied as to be pretty much obvious though.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by tptacek on Saturday August 17, 2013 @07:54PM (#6230872)
I don't see any quid pro quo at all; the message simply seems vindictive.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by h4pless on Saturday August 17, 2013 @08:36PM (#6231009)
This entire situation seems a bit backwards to me. As I read Andy Johnston's letter, I gather that 1) Trip hung up on Andy. 2) Andy thought this was rude. 3) Andy has a lot of friends in SF that use yelp. 4) Andy is going to tell his friends "how [Trip] treated [Andy] as well as [Andy's] feelings about the people who run Sauce."

While this is unprofessional to say the least, I see no extortion or anything like it all as the wording states that this recourse is based on a past event and is not contingent on Trip's future actions at all. Also it is everyone's right to tell their friends if they think a place or a person sucks, that's part of what friends are for. And Andy doesn't say that he's going to write a bad review or have his friends write a bad review, he just says that he's going to tell his friends how Trip treated him. That doesn't mean that his friends will necessarily write reviews for him and because of that there is no guarantee of harm in any way.

What's most interesting to me about this whole situation (and the part that seems backwards) is the Trip's way of dealing with this. So okay, a Groupon employee wrote an angry letter to a restaurant owner that was 100% unprofessional and was probably understood by the restaurant owner to be a threat of defamation by the Andy's network of friends. Trip's response? To publicly post the letters to Facebook along with the Andy's name, cell phone number and other contact information so that everyone else that doesn't like Andy's immature letter can call him any time of the day to tell him how much of a jerk he is? It seems a bit much.

Trip's response letter was well written and had good advice but I believe it should have ended there. By making this whole thing public, Trip is really acting no more mature than Andy was when he wrote the offending letter. Not to mention that it could open Trip up to legal liability as I believe California has laws regarding the publication of private facts (e.g. Andy's cell phone number). Either way, I think this whole situation demonstrates a lot of immaturity on both sides.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by rohamg on Saturday August 17, 2013 @09:40PM (#6231226)
i disagree entirely. Andy is not within his rights to publicly slander a business he has never stepped foot in - much less to entice others to do the same - because someone hung up on him. Especially not on Yelp, something businesses live and die by, at least in the Bay Area. As Trip said, Groupon was being a pest and should have expected to be treated as such. I have no sympathy for Andy here.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by Aussiewebmaster on Tuesday August 20, 2013 @04:22PM (#6246284)
the emails are not the problem - andy posted 2 bad reviews
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by mathattack on Saturday August 17, 2013 @10:05PM (#6231303)
I think I would have written a hardcopy letter to the CEO, cc:ing every member of the board of directors asking how they would protect my business from the slander.

I don't see how the offending employee doesn't get fired, but I think I would have given the boss a way to make me whole before going public.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by SimHacker on Sunday August 18, 2013 @07:23AM (#6232366)
Nothing could compare to the positive publicity and support that Sauce is getting from the community for going public about the extortion instead of seeking private compensation. No way could Groupon could have offered them any "deals" that would bring them as much good publicity and customers as this event will. And it would be unethical for Sauce to seek compensation for keeping it private.

What you suggest is more like extorting Groupon back by insisting on compensation for keeping quiet about the extortion -- instead of warning other businesses and customers about Groupon's criminal activities, and preventing it from happening to others in the future.

Obviously Sauce is not the only company who suffered from Groupon's extortion, and I'm sure Andy Johnston is not the only extortionist working at Groupon. Sauce keeping it under their hat in exchange for a free Groupon deal would be unethical and idiotic.

Groupon deals don't even work well, and Sauce already wanted nothing to do with them.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by mathattack on Sunday August 18, 2013 @09:59AM (#6232667)
Good points. I wasn't thinking extortion in return, I was thinking, "Give them a chance to fix it before going public." I'd always like to fix a problem before a client goes public. And this would put the onus on the company to make sure that any bad reviews get taken down, rather than having to work through Yelp.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by darkchasma on Saturday August 17, 2013 @01:07PM (#6229629)
You would have to demonstrate that this was an encouraged practice, and supported by management. At the very least, you would have to show the company was negligent in responding to accusations of extortion.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by baddox on Saturday August 17, 2013 @02:09PM (#6229808)
Does that act that's being threatened have to itself be illegal in order for the threat to qualify as extortion? Yelp reviews aren't illegal.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by greenyoda on Saturday August 17, 2013 @03:06PM (#6229966)
I don't think the act has to be illegal. For example, if I threaten to tell someone's wife that he's having an affair unless he gives me money, I think that would qualify as extortion. The language of the law doesn't say anything about the act being illegal:

"Extortion is a criminal offense of unlawfully obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion."

"Which Kinds of Threats are Illegal? One common characteristic of extortion is the use of threats, that is, an express intention to inflict injury, loss, or some other bad consequence on another person."

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by ulisesrmzroche on Saturday August 17, 2013 @03:58PM (#6230175)
Threatening to hurt someone's reputation qualifies as extortion though, and the victim doesn't have to necessarily go along with it for it to also qualify as coercion. He actually did hurt their reputation, so technically, the restaurant can call the law right now and get this dude to spend a night in bookings, but, I don't see this really getting there and I don't think it should be.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by baddox on Saturday August 17, 2013 @09:08PM (#6231111)
Perhaps you're right, although that law doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Firstly, that first definition uses "unlawfully," which sounds circular to me. And if I'm understanding that description correctly, basically, you can't inform anyone that they have any incentive to do anything you desire. Bosses wouldn't be able to threaten to fire someone if they continue showing up to work late. Restaurant patrons couldn't threaten to leave a (only one) negative review if their service is poor.

I'm generally not a fan of laws banning blackmail, when the threat is not itself illegal. I find it odd that it would be perfectly legal for me to tell my neighbor's spouse that he is having an affair, or to request money from my neighbor, but it would be illegal for me to request money from my neighbor and promise to tell his wife about his affair if he declines. I'm not generally a big fan of Walter Block's approach to libertarianism, but this is his argument, and I do agree with it: http://mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_2.pdf.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by greenyoda on Sunday August 18, 2013 @04:14AM (#6232074)
"Bosses wouldn't be able to threaten to fire someone if they continue showing up to work late."

The employer is paying the employee to provide a service according to rules that both parties agreed to when the employee was hired. Insisting that they show up on time isn't coercing the employee, since it's something they freely agreed to as a condition of their employment.

"Restaurant patrons couldn't threaten to leave a (only one) negative review if their service is poor."

The restaurant patron is paying to be served, so they wouldn't be getting something they're not already entitled to by threatening to leave a bad review.

"but it would be illegal for me to request money from my neighbor and promise to tell his wife about his affair if he declines."

The difference here is that you're trying to force your neighbor to give you something you're not entitled to (his money) by threatening to do something bad to him. It's different from the boss or restaurant patron, who are demanding services that they've paid for.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by baddox on Sunday August 18, 2013 @05:07PM (#6234240)
Yes, I'm well aware of your descriptions, which is precisely my point. The description of extortion given above would include the first two things.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by greenyoda on Sunday August 18, 2013 @11:16PM (#6235422)
I think that's not true, due to the presence of the word "unlawfully". An employer or restaurant patron receiving the services that they paid for is not unlawful. However, taking money from your neighbor that he doesn't want to give you is unlawful.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by baddox on Monday August 19, 2013 @05:39PM (#6240074)
But that part is circular. I want to know if a given act is unlawful.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by SimHacker on Sunday August 18, 2013 @07:35AM (#6232383)
Maybe he's the one who's having an affair with his neighbor's wife, and he paid her for it, but wasn't satisfied?
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by mbreese on Saturday August 17, 2013 @04:06PM (#6230196)
It could also be considered tortuous interference if they are intentionally trying to disrupt the business of someone. In this case, if the sales rep did somehow get people to leave many negative Yelp reviews, that could be considered interfering with the business.

All in all, it seems like just another bad PR day at Groupon.

Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by unclebucknasty on Saturday August 17, 2013 @11:37PM (#6231537)
I thought tortious interference only applied to contracts?
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by ulisesrmzroche on Saturday August 17, 2013 @03:51PM (#6230163)
No, the platform doesn't matter. It's about the act of forcing someone to do something against their will by threatening them that is illegal.
Re:Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp... by mathattack on Sunday August 18, 2013 @10:03AM (#6232680)
I guess he can always go back to the Claremont Country Club.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andy-johnston/41/81/119