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Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:11PM (#6226139)
I have three things to say about this:

1. Many people are horrified by the thought of not being a simple worker bee. They say they want change, but they don't. They want the security of someone else taking care of them. The reason wealth exists is because there are people that cannot live this way, and thus, make their own way. You cannot fault hard working business owners because their employees put themselves in a place to require said employment in order to sustain a life they consider normal.

2. There will always be wealth. If the US gave up capitalism in favor of socialism, the money would be placed in the hands of the whole, and in this case, the government. At that point, the government has the money and the power. We're screwed.

3. Life is suffering. There is no perfection on this realm. Solve this problem and another will follow. This is a symptom of life in samsara. Bukowski recognized this, which is why he talked of a simple life without possessions. If you truly want to break free of 'the man,' you'll have to life a life defined by something other than money, objects, and achievements. For most of us, this is nearly impossible. Middle ground is an illusion.

Re:“People simply empty out” by blottsie on Friday August 16, 2013 @06:45PM (#6227161)
>They want the security of someone else taking care of them.

Performing a job, even a "simple worker bee" job, is still a job, not charity. As a worker, you perform a function, and the company pays you for your time/expertise/ideas/efforts/output/etc. What the hell part of that is charity, or being "taken care of"?

I find your implication that the employer is somehow doing the employee a favor by paying them for their work baffling and wrong-headed.

Re:“People simply empty out” by Guvante on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:14PM (#6227392)
Everything in life is a trade-off. Being an employee at a decently sized company is about trading certain pleasantries (e.g. having to deal with the 9 to 5 drill) for certain benefits (e.g. a stable income).

Similarly in jobs that have no paid overtime, you are usually compensated a bit more and don't always have to work overtime.

Taken care of in this context is talking about the stability a company provides you. It isn't given to you out of charity, you certainly earn it, but it doesn't come free either.

Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Friday August 16, 2013 @06:53PM (#6227186)
I'm not sure where you're getting that, but if you read the rest of my comments on this thread I think you'll get a different impression.
Re:“People simply empty out” by AznHisoka on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:36PM (#6226274)
I agree on #3. Solve the money problem, and you'll then lament about the sex problem.
Re:“People simply empty out” by pessimizer on Friday August 16, 2013 @08:42PM (#6227686)
Governments always have all of the money. They issue it, and they define it by only accepting their type of money in order to pay their taxes. They hold that value by being strong enough and/or well-connected enough to defend themselves from physical threats from inside and out, and enough to extract taxes and fees from individuals in order to pull that money back out of circulation. In order to do this, they have all the guns.

Government has all of the money and all of the guns. We're already screwed. What we need to focus on is making the government help us structure a better society - a kinder, safer, braver, smarter society. The further we get from that ideal, the closer we get to a world where we will again remember that money can't save you from the people with all the guns. Khodorkovsky thought money was worth something.

Re:“People simply empty out” by zanny on Friday August 16, 2013 @09:29PM (#6227823)
> Governments always have all of the money.

Unless you use bitcoin!

In the past, the best solution to a government you didn't agree with was to leave. Head into the unknown and try new things. That, in practice, rarely ever happened on a macroscale (the new world was firmly cut out and brought under the European model of ownership in centuries as its colonies with no real room to experiment, while simultaneously slaughtering entire civilizations of actual divergent societies) but I'd like to think space presents us with a real opportunity to pick up a few thousand people, find a rock in a habitable zone with water, and try things differently.

Re:“People simply empty out” by ksrm on Saturday August 17, 2013 @12:47AM (#6228192)
Why go all the way to space? Just head to the oceans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading

Re:“People simply empty out” by brianpgordon on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:35PM (#6226265)
I would reframe #1 in terms of acceptable risk. If you're very risk-averse - for example, if you're raising a family and it is absolutely unacceptable to you to fail financially - then it's difficult to justify giving up the security of regular employment.
Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Friday August 16, 2013 @04:06PM (#6226459)
Beyond that, most people just don't have what it takes to do anything else.

We romanticism entrepreneurship often, and for good reason. It takes a lot more than wanting to be free of 9-5 bondage in order to be successful, and that's just to get to the point where luck can play a part.

I try to share my enthusiasm with others but often meet responses like:

'Must be nice to be so:'

talented/lucky/smart/blessed with understanding wife/motivated/etc

So in the end, I grew tired of talking and just tried to lead with actions. Most got bored and stopped paying attention.

Re:“People simply empty out” by vendakka on Saturday August 17, 2013 @05:27AM (#6228627)
Life is suffering? I find that to be overly pessimistic. Life is not simple and there will be sorrow. However, there will be joy as well. "Suffering" is a very strong word to use. There is happiness and there is sorrow. To expect only happiness is not pragmatic, but to expect only sorrow is unfortunate.

Life can be beautiful, even if it is not always so.

Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Saturday August 17, 2013 @03:32PM (#6230070)
It's a tenet of buddhism. I'm just re-stating it.
Re:“People simply empty out” by eli_gottlieb on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:06PM (#6227339)
Stop making excuses.
Re:“People simply empty out” by hnnnnng on Friday August 16, 2013 @04:23PM (#6226561)
#1 is flat out wrong. THERE IS NO SECURITY! Is mcdonalds right? paying people so little that they need another job to not be out on the street? How is that TAKING CARE of employees? Before you say mcdonalds is an exception, theres so many others so dont give me the bullshit about wealth exists because blah.
Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Friday August 16, 2013 @04:41PM (#6226637)
In capitalism, pay is a result of supply and demand. The truth is that working at McDonald's requires very little skill, and because of that, offers very little pay. I thought they paid a great wage when I worked there during high school.

And you're right, there is no security, so what is your solution other than whining about it?

Re:“People simply empty out” by Loughla on Friday August 16, 2013 @05:47PM (#6226907)
Those positions require very little skill, and provide very little pay. Correct. The next part is where most people today get the argument wrong; it isn't that those jobs should pay more for the arbitrary sake of paying more.

Those type of jobs are the step for many people that not just have no more steps to take, but have never had any walkway to stand on. Their entire lives have been spent just trying to make it to the next day.

The argument is that those positions are part of a larger, predatory economy or society seemingly designed to keep a certain subset of the country/world subjugated to another. When you see protests about a higher wage at entry level positions such as fast-food and retail, what you're really seeing is the confused, leaderless argument that life sucks for many people and shows no signs of relenting. It's a first world suck, but suck nonetheless.

Source: research into lower-socioeconomic lifestyles while attaining advanced degrees (and living that life when young; thank God for scholarships).

Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Friday August 16, 2013 @06:08PM (#6227004)
You're right. Been there done that. During a period in my twenties, I had lost my job, had a negative bank balance, and two kids to feed. I was on foodstamps while I worked at the Olive Garden making very little while spending far too long in college subsidized by grants and student loans. I finally graduated, got another job, and was let go within a year.

I now had tons of debt and a degree that was almost worthless. So I joined the Army and left my kids for 16 weeks to attend bootcamp and AIT. Spent 5 years, including a stint in Afghanistan.

Needless to say, I recovered, taught myself how to program, and now run a software company.

Life sucks. For many, it sucks hard. But there are ways out. Most people just don't want to make the sacrifices necessary to do so.

Btw, I'm speaking of 1st world. 3rd world is obviously a different story.

Re:“People simply empty out” by mkr-hn on Friday August 16, 2013 @08:05PM (#6227559)
"I did, therefore everyone can" is my favorite fallacy.
Re:“People simply empty out” by eli_gottlieb on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:14PM (#6227393)
The fact that "make the sacrifices necessary" is a useful attitude for you does not mean the cost-benefit/risk structure is actually adequate for everyone else.
Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:44PM (#6227498)
Which proves my point exactly.
Re:“People simply empty out” by eli_gottlieb on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:47PM (#6227509)
Not at all. I'm referring to many people in the First World.

There's also the structural issue: not everyone can be an entrepreneur, because companies need worker bees to run. You can't run such a strongly hierarchical system as capitalism without some level of social-democratic concessions to enforce that, outside the workplace, my boss and I really are equal human beings.

Re:“People simply empty out” by gh322 on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:53PM (#6227521)
Natural selection then takes hold.
Re:“People simply empty out” by eli_gottlieb on Saturday August 17, 2013 @02:22AM (#6228355)
Care to elaborate? I can't glean your meaning.
Re:“People simply empty out” by hnnnnng on Friday August 16, 2013 @06:20PM (#6227057)
The solution? How about increasing the wage so that these guys dont have to work more than 20 hours a day? How about taking a loss of a billion dollars to reduce profit from 7 billion to 6 billion but in return provide for a better life for the thousands of less fortunate people? If some shareholder makes a few million dollars less, hes not going to die. But the people that are living on food stamps, might very well.

How does costco manage to do this without going into the red? Im not whining that theres no security, i'm stating that making the claim that there is security is WRONG. How about you read with your eyes open? thanks.

Edit: clarification. Edit2: another proof that you can make a profit while actually caring for employees: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/the-trad... Edit3: The supply and demand crap you spew is total garbage. Nothing is 'just supply and demand'. There is much more including profit creation as a result of fulfilling demand with supply. All I suggest is reduce the profit slightly so you pay your low level workers more. They already make less than a third of what people with education do. How about making it equal to or slightly more than a THIRD?

Re:“People simply empty out” by Guvante on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:24PM (#6227443)
For reference a $1 billion dollar pay raise spread amongst McDonald's 1.8 million employees would amount to $556 each. Assuming everyone works an average of 20 hours a week, that is $0.50.

Put another way, if McDonald's gave everyone a $3.50 raise in 2013, they would have not made a profit.

Not saying that McDonald's is right or wrong in their practice, but when you spread out money it really doesn't go very far.

BTW a major factor people tend to forget about companies is to look at what market they are in. Companies that care only about costs are going to treat their employees like crap because their employees are simply an expense they have to bear.

Costco doesn't treat their employees as an expense, they treat them as an investment. They believe that by treating their employees well their return will be enough to allow this additional expense. Aka a better environment for their customers, lower theft, etc.

Short term the former is nice, since you only get employees that are awesome after a long time. Given the huge emphasis today on short term gains, guess which companies are doing "better".

Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Friday August 16, 2013 @06:29PM (#6227087)
Increase wages why? Corporations are not charities, and they have never purported that they are. How is a corporation responsible for someone else's lack of education or skillset?
Re:“People simply empty out” by eli_gottlieb on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:09PM (#6227357)
Because everyone is responsible for everyone else, on some level. This is pretty basic freaking stuff.
Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:47PM (#6227507)
I didn't think everyone would agree with you on that.
Re:“People simply empty out” by eli_gottlieb on Saturday August 17, 2013 @03:13PM (#6229992)
So what?
Re:“People simply empty out” by hnnnnng on Friday August 16, 2013 @06:42PM (#6227143)
How? Because of a vicious cycle that begins with the low wages. You pay someone low wages so: 1) their kids can't pay for college => they can't get a proper education => lack of education/skillset in the kids 2) their kids have to work at these 'corporations' because of lack of education so they can put food on the table 3) their kids resort to stealing or some other illegal activity because they didnt have much of a choice => go to juvenile detention => no college => no skillset that you claim is not your fault

Is that enough or do you want me to go out and get some case studies as well?

Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Friday August 16, 2013 @06:56PM (#6227235)
That's not true. The government offers grants and loans for those with low incomes. I should know, that's how I paid for school. Skillsets and education must be earned; they are not granted.

You're still failing to provide evidence as to how the corporation is the party at fault.

Re:“People simply empty out” by hnnnnng on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:15PM (#6227406)
So, loans are the answer to everything? Are corporations guaranteeing higher wages and certain jobs to everyone with degrees?

What about : http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/ripping-off-young-... from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6224982

Did you even look at that? Just because you were lucky enough to be able to pay off your loans doesnt mean everyone is. What if they dont find a job in their field? And have to work at minimum wage?

What about the veterans that come back from fighting for the country which includes these 'corporations'? Do the corporations guarantee them a higher salary?

http://www.epi.org/blog/raising-minimum-wage-benefits-millio...

What about : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-28/minimum-wage-in-u-s...

How is that not EXPLOITATION? Just because the rich people are able to keep minimum wage low by having funds and time to spend lobbying, does that mean that it is correct?

Re:“People simply empty out” by nhangen on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:46PM (#6227504)
I didn't pay my loans, the army did, after I returned from Afghanistan.