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Re:“People simply empty out” by wffurr on Thursday August 15, 2013 @10:51PM (#6221949)
Wow. Just wow. Simply amazing you can think that given the distribution of wealth in the world. The only reason the vast majority of us have to work to eat is because the vast majority of the proceeds from our labor go to benefit a tiny global elite.

For quite a long time now, the technical means have existed to provide the basics of life to every human being on the planet at a modest cost. And yet we don't – instead the vast majority of us continue to work hard to provide that global elite their "due".

Institutionalized theft? How about economic and social justice?

Re:“People simply empty out” by ctdonath on Friday August 16, 2013 @01:05AM (#6222265)
Average world per capita income, world GDP divided by population, is US$12,000/yr (PPP accounted for). That counts as the basic poverty line in the USA.

The tiny global elite you impugne does not hoard anything relevant. They are just a hose thru which a lot of high velocity money flows, most of their income flowing right back out to others. Without them, the structure for working for that $12,000 average income would collapse and you'd be working a lot harder for a lot less net return.

Take that high density money away from that elite, and you'll discover two things happen. One, you'll be out of a job and relegated to living exactly as a large percentage of world population does: eking out a meager existence from the land to paltry returns; that elite holds the high-wage system together because they profit from it, and without those returns there is little incentive to make such systems work. Two, averaging out all income & wealth so everyone has the same would soon coalesce back into the distribution we have now: those expecting a no-effort living wage produce nothing and get nothing for it, while those enticed by work*risk=profit will find a way and earn that which the others will give to survive.

Yes, institutionalized theft: those who work and take risks having their earnings taken by threat of force by those having no moral & economic interest therein or beyond what was contracted for in a competitive market. Go live off the land for a year, excluding any connection to "the elite", and then tell me about the justice of someone taking the fruits of your labors from you simply because they exist (choosing not to produce).

Re:“People simply empty out” by kphild on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:22AM (#6223302)
And there is zero effort put into figuring out a better system, since those in position of wealth and power don't have an incentive to change what feeds them.

With less than 5% people employed in agriculture [1], it must be possible to allocate resources in a way that does not require most people to waste their lives in jobs. The universal basic income, for instance, would achieve that without abolishing capitalism.

The only problem are people who glorify employment.

[1] http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.AGR.EMPL.ZS?order=wba... (I speak of developed countries only)

Re:“People simply empty out” by ctdonath on Friday August 16, 2013 @12:32PM (#6225034)
Just 5% of people are employed in agriculture precisely because "those in position of wealth and power" DID allocate resources in a way that does not require most people to waste their lives toiling in fields. Without such high-profit motivation to invest in advanced research & infrastructure projects, we'd still be stuck with most people working in agriculture the hard way.

Glorify employment? The socioeconomic world is as good as it is because most people are employed, doing something which contributes to maintenance and advancement of society & technology. By glorifying unemployment, you're proposing removing the efforts which maintain our socioeconomic position & direction, soon leaving us with insufficient effort to even maintain a status quo.

"Well, in our country," said Alice, still panting a little, "you'd generally get to somewhere else — if you run very fast for a long time, as we've been doing." "A slow sort of country!" said the Queen. "Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!" - Alice In Wonderland

The resources of which you speak are, on the whole, perishable consumables. Remember: any society is 3 food-sparse days from violent breakdown. We have to work hard to keep things as they are, and twice as hard to get to where we want to go. Cutting workforce in half means the remaining workers must work twice as hard just to keep everyone as they are, and four times harder if any real progress is desired. Universal basic income means those not earning it are supported by those who do - reducing the incentive to work at all. You say "*it must be possible to allocate resources..." - it isn't, short of incentivising tremendous work times high risk with expectations of huge payoff.

Re:“People simply empty out” by _flag on Saturday August 17, 2013 @08:24AM (#6228908)
> The socioeconomic world is as good as it is because most people are employed, doing something which contributes to maintenance and advancement of society & technology.

Can you justify this? If we use the US as an example and look at the most common jobs, we find that over 4 million people are employed as salespersons, another 3 million as cashiers, followed by 3 million people employed serving food (including fast food), etc. [1]

As the population has been moved away from agriculture, and recently manufacturing, they have become increasingly employed in the service sector. These people are not creating and advancing the technology of tomorrow, they are preforming basic tasks that could easily be done by the customers themselves (eg. automated checkouts).

What's more, there is now millions of people employed in areas such as advertising and sales, where people are essentially tasked with manufacturing wants and increasing the amount of money people spend, which not only defeats the entire basis of a functioning economic system (rational consumers making rational choices), but ensures that additional numbers of people are employed in the manufacture of superfluous goods that people are deceived into buying.

Is there any indication that if we seriously consider what is and isn't necessary in our society, the working population couldn't easily be cut by half without any kind of imminent collapse?

1. http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/Screen%...

edit: spelling

Re:“People simply empty out” by ctdonath on Saturday August 17, 2013 @10:07PM (#6231309)
Sure I can justify this. You present 10,000,000 employed people working jobs which could, conceivably, be automated. Do you seriously think that given technology currently applicable, their employers would not replace those people with machines in a heartbeat if the latter were cheaper? Sure, you can hypothesize about how that should be the case, but you would overlook a multitude of realities that indeed render the human worker superior to the automated alternatives.

I dislike human-clerk checkouts at stores. Nothing against people per se, but as a high-tech introvert I'd rather do it myself - exactly as you suggest. Sure, the technology is there; heck, Walmart even has a phone-based self-scanner so you can do 95% of checkout before you even get to the self-serve register for final payment. The technology sounds great on paper and in rhetoric, but in reality it sucks (despite my valiant concerted efforts to be a automation-supporting customer). Standard self-checkout chokes on the bottle of wine ("Human clerk, is customer over 21?" Uh, yeah, I'm greying with two kids in tow, of course I'm of age). Phone-based on-the-go checkout is time consuming (stop, turn on phone (again), tap Scan, point camera, wait for slow auto-focus, wait for crappy in-store wireless connection to function, get to payment station, get selected for another 15-minute "you've been selected for a compliance check" which confuses human staff every time). Never mind shoplifting, mis-scans, and a host of other problems. Those ten million "technology replaceable staff" are still employed because they're better at the work than technology, and relieving them of their duties does NOT make their freed-up wages available for confiscation & redistribution as "living wages" to the now-unemployed former workers (it's going to technology costs and high-tech maintenance staff). That's 10M people "contributing to maintenance of society".

As for manufacturing wants and increasing money spent vs. consumers making rational choices? I'm watching a startup put serious money into marketing staff; the product is [r]evolutionary and WILL "advance society & technology", but isn't going anywhere without convincing a lot of people to buy it, and the staff IS earning their significant wages by doing so. Oh sure, there's a lot of sales of superfluous goods out there, but even that helps fill out & support an infrastructure which gets vital goods to a broad clientele: Walmart isn't going to get five pounds of bread flour on a shelf for $1.89 without the delivery system greased with the profits from the "cheap crap" they're famous for; in comparison, that same sack of flour would cost about $5 at everything-is-perfect Whole Foods.

Indication that considering what is and isn't necessary in society could "liberate" half the population? Yeah: every society that tried it, like the Soviet Union (hint: they'd kill people for trying to leave).

Re:“People simply empty out” by _flag on Sunday August 18, 2013 @11:59AM (#6233028)
I gave an example of an automated checkout, but my point was not that the jobs I mentioned could all be automated -- my point was that they are not necessary. When I say "necessary", I don't mean that they aren't necessary to increase corporate profits (salesman, which I mentioned, certainly are), I mean they are not necessary to ensure a stable and functioning society. The example I gave with automated checkouts is not to demonstrate that automated checkouts are _better_ than human workers -- human workers are and will likely be far more capable than machines at running checkouts for a long time. My point is that they _could_ be replaced, and that if society decided that increasing human liberty was a more important goal than certain small inconveniences at the checkout, they _would_ be replaced.

So yes, these people are "contributing to the maintenance of society", but there are conceivable alternatives that would give these individuals (and society as a whole) more liberty, and would only require some small inconveniences.

The anecdote you give of your startup which needs advertising to get off the ground is beside the point. Perhaps your startup is revolutionary, and perhaps it needs some advertising to get off the ground, but this doesn't change the fact that most advertising is simply misinformation. Television commercials which make use of lush landscapes and half-naked women to sell cars don't create rational consumers, and without rational consumers you cannot have a functioning market. If advertising was simply a way in which companies communicated well-reasoned facts about products, and came with a balanced analysis of a product and its competitors, then we could argue that advertising was working towards creating a functioning market system. Until then, advertising will simply favour those with the largest advertising budgets and those who are best at disinformation, and so it's difficult to argue it is contributing to society.

> Indication that considering what is and isn't necessary in society could "liberate" half the population? Yeah: every society that tried it, like the Soviet Union (hint: they'd kill people for trying to leave).

This is really cheap rhetoric -- and not even accurate. If I'm arguing for a society where people are liberated from work, why are you using the Soviet Union, a dictatorship where everyone worked all the time, as some kind of counterpoint? Not everything that contradicts the status-quo is totalitarian communism, you know.

Besides, the points I'm trying to make aren't even original. There are serious proposals that have been made for why society should move to a 20-hour work week to address things ranging from rising levels of depression to climate change. [1]

[1] http://www.neweconomics.org/publications/entry/21-hours

Re:“People simply empty out” by ctdonath on Tuesday August 20, 2013 @11:00AM (#6244084)
Simple wrap-up: society won't move to a 20-hour work week because those who do will become jealous of those who don't, desiring unto "necessity" those things the 40- (and 60-, and 80-) hour worker can afford.

You can live on a very very small income right now. I figure an intelligent frugal life can suffice at $10/day. But you don't, because you won't give up what you don't need.

Re:“People simply empty out” by thatswrong0 on Thursday August 15, 2013 @11:23PM (#6222029)
> The only reason the vast majority of us have to work to eat is because the vast majority of the proceeds from our labor go to benefit a tiny global elite.

Explain how this works logically. Do you honestly believe that if you simply took most of the money from rich people, that you would be able to sustainably feed everyone else? Have you considered all, if any, of the potential consequences of this action?

> For quite a long time now, the technical means have existed to provide the basics of life to every human being on the planet at a modest cost.

Again, explain how this works. A major issue with food, for example, is not one of production but instead transportation and distribution. How would making the rich poorer solve this problem?

> Institutionalized theft? How about economic and social justice?

Define justice.

And who on Earth do you trust to take and do well with all of the money taken from rich people?

Re:“People simply empty out” by scotty79 on Friday August 16, 2013 @12:32AM (#6222182)
> Define justice.

At least a setup where right to live is actual right to live and does not degrade to right to not get killed.

Re:“People simply empty out” by ctdonath on Friday August 16, 2013 @12:36PM (#6225061)
Positive rights vs. negative rights. I reject the notion of "positive rights" on the grounds that forcing other people to do things for you at gunpoint (actual or implied) is morally wrong. I support your right to not get killed; I do not support your "right" to threaten the life of another to compel him to improve your situation.
Re:“People simply empty out” by scotty79 on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:13PM (#6226146)
> I do not support your "right" to threaten the life of another to compel him to improve your situation.

Does that mean that you also don't support kicking renters to the curb during winter months if they don't pay?

Re:“People simply empty out” by ctdonath on Friday August 16, 2013 @05:40PM (#6226885)
If they're not paying, they're trespassers. Out. They're free to pursue their right to life without violating someone else's, and they've got far more ability to provide for themselves than you're giving them credit for.

Charity has its place, I advocate and facilitate it, and am not under any delusion that it comes from compelling others to contribute.

Re:“People simply empty out” by scotty79 on Sunday August 18, 2013 @08:28AM (#6232481)
That's what I thought. You are not against threatening somebodies life to compel him to improve someones situation in general. You are perfectly fine with that when it's done to protect the right to do whatever you like with the things you own.

There are a lot of people such as you that think that right to own things and do whatever you like with the things you own trumps pretty much every other right. Including the right not to get killed of the people who'd try to steal your stuff. Fortunately lawmakers in lots of first world countries got passed that barbaric notion. In my country for example you can't hurt the thief. You can try to hold him until the police comes, but if you beat the shit out of him or set a booby trap to harm him you will be prosecuted because you endangered his life and health, a value more important than your petty stuff. Same way you can smash the window of a car parked in the sun on a hot day if you see dog left inside. You are violating less important right to protect higher value.

Re:“People simply empty out” by eli_gottlieb on Saturday August 17, 2013 @02:12AM (#6228338)
The problem with your theories being, of course, that property is theft in the first place.
Re:“People simply empty out” by ctdonath on Saturday August 17, 2013 @10:05AM (#6229108)
ycombinator.com is an odd place for you to advance that notion
Re:“People simply empty out” by ahomescu1 on Thursday August 15, 2013 @11:27PM (#6222042)
Also, keep in mind that money is not wealth. This "global elite" is not hoarding food, fuel or other basic necessities, they only have the money. New money can be printed, old money can be destroyed, new currencies can be created. The only real wealth is goods and services created/rendered by working people, and this "global elite" doesn't really have a strong grip on that.
Re:“People simply empty out” by scotty79 on Friday August 16, 2013 @12:45AM (#6222213)
Yes. Money is just a way of figuring out how much of the economical output of the whole system each money holder can use. By hoarding money rich don't do much harm.

But because they have so much money they can hoard resources. And they do to earn more like so: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/opinion/goldman-sachss-alu... They also hoard food: http://www.dw.de/germanys-dz-bank-ends-food-speculation-trad... They also can hoard companies. Buy them and harm them. This happens to most acquired startups.

The problem is not that they have a lot of money. The problem is what they do with the money. Of course it's not all bad. There are things that rich people made that benefited everybody, but I'm guessing most such things were created on the way to getting rich.

Re:“People simply empty out” by scotty79 on Friday August 16, 2013 @02:55AM (#6222549)
The other thing rich people hoard is real estate. This increases price of one of most basic necessities. This also degrades the real estate resource because more people have to rent, and people who live in their own house tend to care about its state more than people who rent and people who own house just to rent it away.
Re:“People simply empty out” by tomp on Friday August 16, 2013 @04:40AM (#6222842)
This shouldn't be a problem, especially in the US, where there is so much empty space. Maybe more in the tiny Europe, but there is still a lot of empty space here, and a lot of empty houses in remote villages.

The problem is just that people want to live in the cities, and there just isn't a lot of space in the cities.

Re:“People simply empty out” by scotty79 on Friday August 16, 2013 @05:04AM (#6222920)
>This shouldn't be a problem, especially in the US, where there is so much empty space.

If you spread population of the world to occupy all the land evenly it would be only 300 feet from each person to its closes neighbors. So it's not that much free space.

> The problem is just that people want to live in the cities, and there just isn't a lot of space in the cities.

And this makes the problem of price elevation from hoarding real estate even more pronounced.

Re:“People simply empty out” by rubinelli on Friday August 16, 2013 @08:52AM (#6223646)
> The problem is just that people want to live in the cities, and there just isn't a lot of space in the cities.

People will live where they can find jobs, and the very concentration of people brings in even more jobs to cities. As much as some cite the amenities of large cities to stay, a very large portion of the retiring population move away as soon as they don't need to work anymore.

Re:“People simply empty out” by lgieron on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:05AM (#6223256)
FWIW, Europe is larger than the US (10.1m vs 9.2m km^2).
Re:“People simply empty out” by alexeisadeski3 on Friday August 16, 2013 @07:54AM (#6223400)
Over double the population.
Re:“People simply empty out” by ksrm on Saturday August 17, 2013 @01:43AM (#6228291)
A land value tax would go a long way towards fixing this. You could decrease income and sales taxes as a result.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

Re:“People simply empty out” by ahomescu1 on Friday August 16, 2013 @04:14AM (#6222762)
In principle, I agree. However, since the bubble crashed a few years back, real estate prices have been going down like crazy in many places (both US and Europe), because of the reduced demand.
Re:“People simply empty out” by scotty79 on Friday August 16, 2013 @05:11AM (#6222948)
Like you said "bubble". So it's not "going down like crazy" it just readjusts to level closer to sane price.

And that reduced demand doesn't come from people needing less real estate to live. Just from the fact that real estate reached prices that most people can't afford even if they pay with slaving their whole life for mortgage.

Reasonable price for apartment would be what most people could save up during the time they still live with their parents. But since real estate backed credit is legal that's not gonna happen. Such credit allows people to sell their future work in a manner almost perfectly safe for the bank. Thanks to this since you need place to live to have a life it can cost huge part of what you earn in life.

Re:“People simply empty out” by ahomescu1 on Thursday August 15, 2013 @11:22PM (#6222018)
I don't think you understand basic economics.

> For quite a long time now, the technical means have existed to provide the basics of life to every human being on the planet at a modest cost.

Are you sure we have all the fuel and land to feed, house and clothe everyone? And if so, who's going to work for that? If everyone gets food and shelter for free, I'm not working to provide that.

The reality is, food needs to be grown, clothes made and houses built. Some people need to work for that. In exchange for that work, they ask some sort of compensation from others, in the form of other services or goods. This has nothing to do with the "global elite", this is just the nature of trade. I think giving someone stuff for free without getting anything in return is a greater injustice than this "instutionalized theft" you speak of.

Re:“People simply empty out” by mempko on Friday August 16, 2013 @12:28AM (#6222167)
At work, do you help your co-worker without asking, or do you have them sign a contract and exchange money?
Re:“People simply empty out” by nostrademons on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:38AM (#6222671)
You do that because you have a reasonable expectation that they'll help you back in the future, though. If you have a coworker that always needs help and never contributes anything back, eventually you'll start grumbling and stop helping. (Such coworkers usually eventually get fired in well-performing organizations, or marginalized and ignored in poorly-performing ones.)
Re:“People simply empty out” by auggierose on Friday August 16, 2013 @03:27AM (#6222632)
You've signed a contract with your employer to provide that help, you are not doing it for free.
Re:“People simply empty out” by thuuuomas on Friday August 16, 2013 @09:48PM (#6227880)
Are you or are you not included in the group consisting of 'everyone'?