News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by pdknsk on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @03:23PM (#6168606)
I have a question. Why did a moderator lowercase OpenPOWER? It makes a difference.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by speeder on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @03:24PM (#6168617)
To the mod:

POWER is not a typo, and it is not a emphasis, this is the trademark from IBM, the thing is really named POWER in all caps.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by marshray on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @05:36PM (#6169349)
IMHO, that doesn't mean it's not shouting. At some point, gratuitous typography runs the risk of people refusing to respect it. For example, that company that seems to expect people to spell its name with a trailing exclamation point.

I have a bit more sympathy for IBM since they weren't exactly going for viral adoption and (seriously) their products have a long tradition of being lowercase-challenged.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by iyulaev on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @06:05PM (#6169535)
"IMHO, that doesn't mean it's not shouting. "

So why did you write IBM, instead of Ibm? Or ARM, instead of Arm?

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by marshray on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @06:25PM (#6169621)
Because I find meaningless three letter acronyms much more palatable than five letter contrived ones.

The contrivedness of an acronym increases exponentially with its length.

EDIT: OK, I give in. I had too much fun hanging out with the password cracking guys at the awesome Passwords 13 conference last week.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by mburns on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @05:54PM (#6169467)
>"The name is an acronym for Performance Optimization With Enhanced RISC."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_POWER_Instruction_Set_Archi...

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by marshray on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @06:02PM (#6169519)
Right, not contrived at all.

It will be interesting to see if the New York Times refers to it as "I.B.M.'s P.O.W.E.R. technology."

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by wmf on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @06:38PM (#6169675)
A.F.A.I.K., N.Y.T.'s quaint style guide advises periods for initialisms (which are pronounced letter-by-letter) but no periods for acronyms (which are pronounced like words).
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by 3825 on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @08:47PM (#6170174)
We also write Patriot Act not PATRIOT Act.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by marshray on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @01:20AM (#6171016)
May I suggest: "Patriot" Act

Shouldn't we call out particularly egregious bits of language engineering when we see them?

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by beedogs on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @12:03AM (#6170753)
Have you been anywhere near technology for the past 20 years? POWER has been its name forever.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by marshray on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @01:17AM (#6171002)
Indeed. It was exactly 20 years ago, almost to the day, that I quit working for that IBM reseller in RTP, NC and took a career detour into lesser things.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by dmm on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:01PM (#6168791)
IBM is furloughing US hardware employees this month: http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkonrad/2013/08/05/report-ibm...
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by ChuckMcM on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @06:17PM (#6169592)
I find this move greatly entertaining. Its like a Hollywood remake, "AIM Alliance II"[1] Many of the things that make ARM successful IBM has dismissed in the past as pandering to special interests. And, like Sun with its failed attempt to make SPARC a thing, IBM has shown it can be a bit schizophrenic when it comes to sharing enough that folks can compete. ARM, not having a fab, and not having any products for sale, has very little to discourage it from agreeing to things. IBM on the other hand has other interests that are often in tension with the goal of making a processor architecture ubiquitous.

Glad they are trying again, not sure if they will be any more successful this time, but will be pleasantly surprised if we get a credible third horse in the 'mass market instruction set architecture' race.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM_alliance

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by dlinder on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @05:10PM (#6169187)
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by jjindev on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @05:57PM (#6169488)
Yes, there is a Back To The Future aspect. That said, cpus are just cheaper and easier these days. POWER, as a core, might break out.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by hga on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @02:32PM (#6168308)
Industry consortiums are always iffy things, but here's one thing I don't think I've seen since Lisp Machine days that's potentially very interesting:

"The consortium will offer open-source POWER firmware, the software that controls basic chip functions."

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by wmf on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @02:45PM (#6168392)
Open source firmware is a thing; check out U-Boot and Coreboot. I hear Google loves Coreboot.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by hga on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @02:50PM (#6168429)
Of course, but those aren't CPU firmware. With MIT and LMI's Lisp Machines (and probably the Symbolics LM-2 repackaging of MIT's, don't know about their own architectures), depending on how much microcode SRAM you had you could add your own microcoded instructions to the machine. There was even a compiler to make it easier, although I don't know how widely that was used.

ADDED: the elReg article in this item, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6168144, based on talking to an IBM guy, implies it is that level of BIOS/chipset firmware that's being talking about. Ah well.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by wmf on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @02:56PM (#6168463)
It sounds like you're going to be disappointed. Firmware != microcode, and we didn't say we're opening the microcode.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by aray on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @06:40PM (#6169681)
We? Are you involved in the OpenPOWER project?
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by wmf on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @07:19PM (#6169857)
Not personally.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by marshray on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @05:40PM (#6169371)
"OpenPOWER is open to any firm that wants to innovate on the POWER platform and participate in an open, collaborative effort."

Translation: There is no way that this hardware is going to end up being affordable for small time builders, hackers, and enthusiasts. Unless someone screws up and accidentally ships something like a Playstation 3 rev 1 using it.

I'm only cynical because I'm jealous.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by ksec on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @03:02PM (#6168502)
Too little too late? I dont get it. Intel has been iterating x86 at insane speed. In the high performance side Intel has finally caught on and eclipse Power. While Intel x86 has been winning the performance and performance / power in certain wattage scenario, they still dont have something to show for in Low Power segment. Although the next gen Intel Atom should be on par with the best in ARM, pricing would put Intel at disadvantage.

And that means in Low Power segment ARM realm supreme. Not likely to be dethrone in the next coming decade. As they have solid roadmap and pretty much the plan for next few years are all set and done.

So where does it left for Power? Coming from IBM they are very likely to be expensive. IBM has never been known to iterate as fast as Intel. Let alone ARM which now offers all sort of ARM chips for everything except High performance in their portfolio.

I just dont see how this could change anything.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by perryh2 on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:16PM (#6168879)
For those that do not know, IBM processors are used in high-performance computing applications. Some of the world's fastest supercomputers are based on POWER [1]. These supercomputers can have hundreds of thousands or even millions of cores for massively parallel computing. We've seen recently from some of these systems that the POWER processors are much more effective than x86 processors. They consume lower power and generate less heat. If combined with Nvidia GPU's for CUDA and Mellanox's commodity InifiniBand interconnect hardware, we could have affordable clusters for heterogenous high-performance computing.

In the past, the supercomputers/clusters sold by IBM do not include hardware from these other companies. I think this partnership with Tyan (major manufacturer of current x86 chipsets) will also allow 3rd-party vendors to build systems with IBM POWER processors.

In other words, POWER is not in the same market as x86 or ARM. It does have its own niche in the market.

[1] http://www.top500.org/lists/2013/06/

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by andor on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:33PM (#6168966)
We've seen recently from some of these systems that the POWER processors are much more effective than x86 processors. They consume lower power and generate less heat.

In other words, POWER is not in the same market as x86 or ARM. It does have its own niche in the market.

Look at that Top500 list again and compare #1 (x86) and #3 (POWER). #1 has about double the number of cores, performance and power usage. I'd say the high-end Xeons are comparable to POWER in all aspects.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by perryh2 on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:46PM (#6169048)
The computer in the #1 spot was recently announced in China and sports Intel's Xeon Phi coprocessors, which include many cores per unit. The system in the #3 spot uses all cpu's and is completely homogenous. I worked in HPC at LLNL last year and saw the POWER processors. They are very small units and don't draw nearly as much power as Intel Xeon series.

Here's a picture of the Sequoia machine: http://imgur.com/6UrZndM

Each of those cards is a single node in the cluster.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by ksec on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @01:02AM (#6170951)
Great perspective. Any more to share on your view how will POWER changes, i still dont see it goes anywhere apart from HPC. And being solely used in HPC just isn't a variable long term strategy.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by synacksynack on Wednesday August 07, 2013 @03:08AM (#6171295)
Another worthwhile list to look at is the Green500 [1], which ranks machines based on MFLOPS/Watt. With the exception of a few GPU and Xeon Phi heavy machines at the top, the high end is dominated by IBM's Blue Gene machines.

[1] http://www.green500.org/lists/green201306&green500from=1&gre...

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by speeder on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @03:27PM (#6168635)
If something cool comes out of this I will be very happy.

I always considered POWER much more cool than x86, and was pretty sad when Apple abandoned it.

Also I was happy the current gen consoles used it, but I think Sony move to make it bizarrely complex to the point that noone could code for it, kinda stupid.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by angersock on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @02:39PM (#6168341)
What is the status of the old T1/T2 SPARC chips? Those were similarly open-sourced, yes?
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by tcas on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:48PM (#6169065)
The RTL source was released under the GPLv2, GPL and hardware is a bit iffy since synthesis isn't the same as compilation, but depending on who owns the IP (in this case Oracle) they could make the case you need to open source your RTL source as well. I personally wouldn't invest the high hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars needed to produce a chip without getting a license agreement first with the ambiguity of the license, and which point I would probably consider the POWER architectures (like many FPGAs vendors used to) or ARM. In the case of pushing it to FPGAs, the OpenSPARC would use a ton of resources to the point where I'd rather have a dedicated off chip processor, or a FPGA with a built in processor.

I know people have put the OpenSPARC code on FPGAs, but I don't know of any use in industry in FPGAs or ASICS. I'd be interested if anybody knows any.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by angersock on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @06:02PM (#6169521)
It's a shame too... so many beautiful threads.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by rayiner on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:32PM (#6168959)
Relevant, for anybody thinking of jumping aboard that sinking ship: http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkonrad/2013/08/05/report-ibm....
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by 1O0101ll100O on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:02PM (#6168799)
Hmmm. Google having significant influence on the lowest level of my hardware...
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by lmm on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:52PM (#6169090)
You mean the bits that are already made in china?
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by oscargrouch on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:33PM (#6168967)
any chance to have a parallella sort of SOC, a cheap HPC contender out of this consortiums?

imagine a PowerPC HPC SOC for less than $99 :)

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by iyulaev on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @06:09PM (#6169551)
POWER != PowerPC, although they are related.

There are/were plenty of PowerPC-based microcontrollers. Freescale, among other vendors, had a few families. It's all ARM now though as far as I know.

Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by bashinator on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @06:25PM (#6169620)
PPC is still incredibly common in industrial embedded systems.
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by fortmac on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @04:33PM (#6168965)
So should I not throwout my powerbook G4?
Re:Google, IBM, Mellanox, Nvidia, Tyan form OpenPower Consor... by AsymetricCom on Tuesday August 06, 2013 @07:13PM (#6169836)
Probably a good idea to deprecate your POWER infrastructure. This can only mean bad things for the customer support. Getting your APIs twisted in this so-called "open" software on proprietary, niche hardware mess with no single POC will mean you're dependent on them for a long time to come and your software will only become more and more complex and integrated as time goes on, until nobody on earth can untangle it.