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Re:Tools For Treason by rayiner on Sunday July 07, 2013 @04:12PM (#6003245)
> Technology is more powerful than both democracy and bureaucracy

That's an interesting statement, and I think one I represents a a troubling undercurrent of thought in the tech community. "We refuse to submit to the democratic process and will override the democratic consensus through technology."

Re:Tools For Treason by eloisius on Sunday July 07, 2013 @05:41PM (#6003653)
And I think it invokes the rarely considered idea that maybe democracy isn't the pinnacle of human social organization.

Corrupt power structures may have finally optimized for dominating a democratically organized society and we should be at least philosophizing about a favorable post-democracy world. I.e., what's more "democratic" than democracy?

Re:Tools For Treason by tptacek on Sunday July 07, 2013 @07:07PM (#6004003)
This is a scary comment; it reifies the abstract concern Rayiner had upthread. Favorable post-Democracy though technology? That sounds like something Aldous Huxley would write about.
Re:Tools For Treason by eloisius on Sunday July 07, 2013 @07:41PM (#6004124)
Using technology to improve our social organization doesn't have to mean some sort of dystopian techno-unanimity.

In a more primitive time, would it be "scary" to suggest that through technological advancements like agriculture, writing, and calendars we could achieve a better, more just society?

Re:Tools For Treason by tptacek on Sunday July 07, 2013 @08:41PM (#6004353)
It's possible to look at the antagonists of most dystopian fiction and find the noble intentions.

Rayiner's point wasn't that technology intrinsically subverts the social contract; only that some technologists seem to want it to.

Re:Tools For Treason by eloisius on Sunday July 07, 2013 @09:13PM (#6004474)
I feel like we're talking past one another so I'll shut up after this reply. I think this disagreement comes down to a difference of values and not just how they are implemented.

Specifically, you seem to hold a notion of a social contract: a concept that I reject. Subverting a "contract" which has been forced upon me and to which I never agreed sounds like a noble endeavor to me, but I'm sure you'd be repulsed by the idea.

Given our starkly different motivations, I believe the best outcome either of us could hope for in a debate is that we both remain reasoned and civil, as there's probably little chance of winning the other to our side.

Re:Tools For Treason by tptacek on Sunday July 07, 2013 @09:14PM (#6004476)
I agree about our prospects. Have a good rest of your weekend.
Re:Tools For Treason by danielweber on Monday July 08, 2013 @02:09PM (#6008154)
maybe democracy isn't the pinnacle of human social organization.

Democracy sucks. But you know what sucks more? Everything else.

Re:Tools For Treason by eloisius on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @04:29PM (#6015223)
I believe the quote goes, "Everything else _we've tried_"
Re:Tools For Treason by rohamg on Sunday July 07, 2013 @04:56PM (#6003442)
no. the correct phrasing for the current of thought you reference would be "we refuse to submit to undemocratic/unconstitutional restrictions on the democratic process and will attempt to overturn the administrative consensus through technology". The majority of the time this comes through democratizing access to information, thus raising awareness and allowing the democratic process to work as designed.
Re:Tools For Treason by rayiner on Sunday July 07, 2013 @05:23PM (#6003554)
You can't claim to be fighting for the democratic process when public opinion is not on your side.
Re:Tools For Treason by tptacek on Sunday July 07, 2013 @11:41PM (#6005050)
Sure you can. Our democratic process involves people choosing a credible representative, who then hires a staff and meets with other representatives in order to make decisions. An activist working within the system can, as I feel like you've pointed out before, ignore public opinion and lobby representatives directly; "lobby" is a curse word around here, but obviously it's not always a bad thing.
Re:Tools For Treason by rohamg on Sunday July 07, 2013 @10:19PM (#6004741)
this is a silly comment. democratic process != majority rule. My point was precisely that by democratizing access to information, technology helps the public form an informed opinion.
Re:Tools For Treason by devindotcom on Monday July 08, 2013 @03:29AM (#6005576)
I think the error in your comparison is that "the democratic consensus" is certainly not what produced PRISM and the rest.

What I suggest in the article is little more than civil disobedience, in a way. It's refusing to supply an apparatus we never approved with information we never released. Since they can and will take it from us without our knowledge or consent, we have to make it impossible for that to happen before we can have a reasonable parley, you know?

Obviously we're not quite at the Gandhi or King level of disobedience (it would be rather hubristic to suggest it), but it's a similar principle in action, perhaps a bit more preemptively.