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Re:Tools For Treason by eloisius on Sunday July 07, 2013 @05:41PM (#6003653)
And I think it invokes the rarely considered idea that maybe democracy isn't the pinnacle of human social organization.

Corrupt power structures may have finally optimized for dominating a democratically organized society and we should be at least philosophizing about a favorable post-democracy world. I.e., what's more "democratic" than democracy?

Re:Tools For Treason by tptacek on Sunday July 07, 2013 @07:07PM (#6004003)
This is a scary comment; it reifies the abstract concern Rayiner had upthread. Favorable post-Democracy though technology? That sounds like something Aldous Huxley would write about.
Re:Tools For Treason by eloisius on Sunday July 07, 2013 @07:41PM (#6004124)
Using technology to improve our social organization doesn't have to mean some sort of dystopian techno-unanimity.

In a more primitive time, would it be "scary" to suggest that through technological advancements like agriculture, writing, and calendars we could achieve a better, more just society?

Re:Tools For Treason by tptacek on Sunday July 07, 2013 @08:41PM (#6004353)
It's possible to look at the antagonists of most dystopian fiction and find the noble intentions.

Rayiner's point wasn't that technology intrinsically subverts the social contract; only that some technologists seem to want it to.

Re:Tools For Treason by eloisius on Sunday July 07, 2013 @09:13PM (#6004474)
I feel like we're talking past one another so I'll shut up after this reply. I think this disagreement comes down to a difference of values and not just how they are implemented.

Specifically, you seem to hold a notion of a social contract: a concept that I reject. Subverting a "contract" which has been forced upon me and to which I never agreed sounds like a noble endeavor to me, but I'm sure you'd be repulsed by the idea.

Given our starkly different motivations, I believe the best outcome either of us could hope for in a debate is that we both remain reasoned and civil, as there's probably little chance of winning the other to our side.

Re:Tools For Treason by tptacek on Sunday July 07, 2013 @09:14PM (#6004476)
I agree about our prospects. Have a good rest of your weekend.
Re:Tools For Treason by danielweber on Monday July 08, 2013 @02:09PM (#6008154)
maybe democracy isn't the pinnacle of human social organization.

Democracy sucks. But you know what sucks more? Everything else.

Re:Tools For Treason by eloisius on Tuesday July 09, 2013 @04:29PM (#6015223)
I believe the quote goes, "Everything else _we've tried_"