I hate wearing "fitted" clothes and shoes...god how I hate shoes...I have spent the last several years of my professional career wearing flip flops or sandals around the office.
I have never worn pants suit, in the winter I opt for a hoodie, tshirt and jeans - and generally substitute the jeans for a skirt in the summer.
As a result, I am biased towards people who wear suits (especially with ties!) - The question in the back of my mind is "what are they trying to hide?". (It should be noted that these observations are from corporate land where I no longer reside.)
I have met people who believed that simply because they were in a suit they should be listened to...even when it was clear they had no knowledge about the situation at hand - this tends to apply to project managers and the like.
When I met somebody in t-shirt and jeans I tended to get along with them, they tended to be knowledgeable and could stand their ground.
I have since moved out of corporate land, and into an environment where tshirt and jeans is the norm - and these people "get shit done" - their career development and self esteem comes from the fact that they are the best at what they do...not because "I look good this morning"
You shouldn't get respect from the clothes you wear...you should demand respect from the skills you have.
Also, for example, the other day I organized a "Restore the Fourth" rally for my home town. As the organizer, I felt it necessary to look nice and presentable because people generally respect nicer-dressed people, and I knew I would be interviewed for the evening news. If I had worn sneakers, gym shorts, an ironic t shirt, and a neck beard, things would not have run nearly as smoothly as they did.
Or as I call it "dressing like a Physics professor". You'll notice that people who need to work with their minds very rarely dress well, and people who use other attributes dress very well...often inversely correlated with how well they can use their minds as a tool.
An article like this shooting to the top of HN is a consequence of the rise in status of programmers. Probably nothing can be done about it, but an article on how to conform is the antithesis of hacker culture.
(Edit: I agree that subcultures have their own conformity rules.)
Please don't be personally sarcastic on HN.
Please don't meta-moderate my contributions to this community.
Unless type X of footwear professionally disables you in some sort of way, I think the statement "[X] have no place in a professional environment" is rubbish.
This is non-sense, light-but-vicious conformism.
Any other professional environment I disagree. Why? I wear crocs to work. I wish I could go barefoot. What does footwear have to do with software development?
When business came about, there was a general idea that the quality of a person and their business dealings was reflected in the way they presented themselves. This was a big deal back when you had to physically interact with the businessperson. If their appearance was sloppy, cheap, unclean, or otherwise with no care put into it, often the products would reflect the same lack of care.
Fast forward to present-day. Joe Emacs sits in his Herman Miller, his "No, I Will Not Fix Your Computer" t-shirt stained by cheetos and free mountain dew. His sandals expose his grimy, untrimmed, twisted toenails. He smells of BO, either because he forgot to put on deodorant or hasn't showered in days, probably due to "marathon coding sessions". His hair is also greasy and smells.
Joe Emacs likes to shout over his cube to his co-workers, because why should he make the effort to get up? Joe Emacs likes to leave trash all over his cube. Joe Emacs blares youtube clips over speakers instead of headphones, annoying all his co-workers, preventing them from working. Joe Emacs likes to talk loudly about subjects that bother or annoy his co-workers. Joe Emacs is an asshole.
Compare Joe Emacs to Fred Altair. He comes to work in crisply ironed chinos and a dress-shirt or polo. His hair is combed. He smells nice. His brown leather shoes gleam in the fluorescent light. His desk is neat and tidy. He walks over to his co-workers and politely asks questions without interrupting. He uses headphones, and doesn't discuss religion, politics, or other controversial topics in the workplace.
It doesn't matter which you would prefer to be. Joe Emacs is going to annoy his co-workers and make it a shitty place to work. Fred Altair will be appreciated by his co-workers, and make it a much more relaxing place to work.
But it's not about clothes. It's about professional attitude and environment, which is to say, respecting your co-workers and not becoming a burden on others. If you can do that while still wearing Crocs, by all means go ahead.
Barefoot is just not acceptable. it's unhygenic. Nobody wants to smell your feet, and even if your feet aren't smelly, you're at risk of developing a fungal infection, injury, etc. Wear some shoes.
The other aspect to picking a particular style or dress (let's call it "conservative dress") is that it makes people more comfortable. People are weird. Often they get uncomfortable if people around them dress different than they're used to. You see it in tech workers all the time: they say "I'll never wear a tie! Oppression!" or somesuch thing. Ties make them uncomfortable, just like people in shorts, sandals and a t-shirt with a slogan might make other people uncomfortable. Something in the middle would make everyone more comfortable, which makes for a better work environment.
But the way you dress can influence the way you and your co-workers behave. In my experience, dressing more relaxed leads to more relaxed personalities, which has both great and horrible side-effects. People think they can act however they would with their friends, which (for tech types) might be very abrasive to strangers. It may also affect their work, or how they compose themselves in meetings. I can't tell you how often i've heard the causally-dressed guy tell someone to fuck off in a meeting, while the guy in business-casual is much more tactful. These are just some examples.
After about 20 years in professional work, I can confirm that the nicer the suit, the bigger the asshole. The hack is to dress in a nice suit as well and then don't back down when the bully bombasts all over you. You'll probably end up with a promotion. Not backing down form a T-shirt position will probably get you laid off.
> I wear crocs to work.
Tell that to Billy G, Stevie J, and just about every programmer that works for IBM, Microsoft, Apple, Intel, and Google. I'm guessing you don't really know that many programmers that work at mainly tech companies.
Oh, and ladies go crazy over well-fitting clothes, especially suits.
Isn't a professional environment simply the typical environment in which a given class of professionals chooses or prefers to work?
Are there professional garbage truck drivers?
Please let me know. I've tried for almost 20 years to find a pair of decent work shoes half as comfortable as a pair of knock off $10 sneakers. I try to get by with choosing decent looking sneakers, but it's a lost battle. Mens dress shoes are made for a foot shape that mine obviously isn't.
The most comfortable shoes I've ever worn are Keens, followed closely by Vans, then Merrels.
My local shoe guy has tried in vain for years to find me a pair of nice work shoes. His last best effort was Mephisto, which are awesome shoes and an awesome company, and completely unwearable for me after a few minutes.
As opposed to what? I find Cole Haan shoes extremely comfortable for example. And they even come with Nike Air soles.
I prefer wearing gym shorts to slacks. If that preference qualifies as "wanting to look like a disheveled slob," then a large fraction of the population wants to look like a disheveled slob.
More generally, I prefer not to worry about things like brands of clothing.
It's fine that others do. I'd agree you didn't say anything controversial or offensive. But, fashion isn't for everyone.
I don't think there's any argument about that.
Any man, over 20-22, that wears "gym shorts" casually looks like a disheveled slob.
Not calling people names, whether or not it's due to their clothing choices, is going to earn you more respect than the clothes you personally like to wear.
Because a t-shirt with cola and burger residue is what characterises a hacker and an independent spirit, right?
I don't see how taking the time to have, say, a nice desk, or car is OK, but nice clothes are somehow beneath us.
Preferring a t-shirt doesn't mean you don't care about food stains on your clothes.
I wear high quality t-shirts, jeans and sneakers that look, fit and feel great (to me). They aren't fancy, but niceness seems pretty subjective. My wardrobe is nice to me, maybe not to anyone else.
Personally I gauge the niceness of my desk and car by their utility and enjoyability, same with my clothes. There are certain utilitarian requirements for each, it's pretty much about personal opinion after that.
Actually it's pretty objective within a culture. Might not be objective in the gravity and T || F = T way, but it's objective in the cultural sense.
To the degree that you get pretty consistent results from studies where subjects are shown photos of people or stuff to judge for "niceness".
Please don't make sarcastic personal comments on HN.
If you are in a profession that requires a "uniform" then I may have some empathy for your ideas. Otherwise, I am mentally unable to grasp the need for this thinly-veiled, vapid, conformist outlook regarding external appearances.
You are correct. Is there a point though?
Why not maintain the hacker ideals of innovation and disruption while hacking others' perceptions of you to make yourself seem more trustworthy and respectable?
Precisely. And this cuts both ways. Hope you can see that.
You will surely wind up with someone of the sort as your boss. That's just the way the world works.
Sure, hence HN, YC and the audience here that is actively striving towards being their own boss. Actively changing the way the world works as part of their striving for freedom from such bosses!
I absolutely agree that fit is crucial for clothes. However, everyone has a different context and you really don't want to look woefully out of place. Sometimes that means wearing (nice) trainers.
Managers dress better because they have a softer skill set that depends more on perception than hard results. Zuckerberg is a hacker, with a hacker's mindset. That's why he doesn't dress up.
What I recommend to get started is go to a consignment/thrift store such as Goodwill and liberally buying cheap clothes that fit decently well. For shirts this mainly just means ensuring the shoulder crease lines up with the "angle" at the end of your shoulder. Take them all to an alterations store and have the nice lady fit everything for you. This will be the most expensive part of this whole endeavor. As a result you'll get a better feel for the types of clothes that work best for you as well as how clothes are supposed to fit, all for relatively little upfront investment.
Also get nice shoes. Reddit's malefashionadvice is notorious for advocating Clarks Desert Boots. There's a reason for this; they're fantastic. I own a pair, wear them all the time. Whatever you do, don't wear sneakers around unless you're a personal trainer. You're probably not in high school anymore, and nice shoes will instantly help you present yourself more professionally.