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Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by 10ren on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @02:15PM (#596383)
To see something that does not exist (and then create it) is surely out of touch with reality, and a form of psychosis.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by timr on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @06:50PM (#596924)
I hate that quote. It makes "progress" seem inevitably adversarial, when in fact, most of the things that we see as "progress" in the world are evolutionary phenomena -- adaptive by nature.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by 10ren on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @07:29PM (#597032)
I interpret the quote as applying to things I do, not to things I see; and as difficulties in general, not necessarily adversarial.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by amichail on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @01:18PM (#596208)
From the article: "Scientists were the least affected, while artists and writers had increased diagnoses of psychosis."

My guess is that artists and writers are more creative than scientists due to the randomness of a flawed brain.

But obviously we can get randomness from other sources such as computers. So maybe normal brains in combination with computers can be creative too.

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by UncleOxidant on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @02:23PM (#596404)
However, it seems like doing science requires at least as much creativity as writing or painting.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by amichail on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @02:48PM (#596457)
There are different sorts of creativity.

Most mathematicians would probably not do very well in the open-ended creativity of writing a novel say.

One type of creativity is goal driven (e.g., prove this theorem), while the other not so much (e.g., write an interesting novel).

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by Retric on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @03:25PM (#596539)
How is "write an interesting novel" not a goal?

I was once a fairly talented writer, but coding is less effort and on average better paying, so that's the path I chose. In the end I really don't see that big of a difference in the creative process. Granted, once you focus on a specific path for several years you change your relative strengths so it's easy to confuse innate talent with effort.

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by amichail on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @03:38PM (#596570)
It's a very vague goal. Moreover, there is no such thing as a "wrong" novel.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by joecode on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @04:09PM (#596622)
Well, there is: One that doesn't express your viewpoint well, for example. It depends on precisely what you are trying to accomplish in writing it, of course.

Mathematical proofs require a lot of creativivty, too. There are many different ways to prove a given theorem, and it takes quite a bit of imagination to come up with one.

I'd say the main difference is emotional. Being creative in the humanities requires a certain emotional madness, which can be especially debilitating. Scientists and mathematicians mostly just need to be obsessive, focused, and good at ferreting out hard to recognize patterns.

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by amichail on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @04:42PM (#596684)
I'd say the main difference is emotional.

What does that mean exactly and why does it not apply to mathematicians?

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by joecode on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @06:57PM (#596948)
Mathematicians typically deal with abstract problems that have no direct relation to human feelings. Novelists, artists, and social scientists typically do the opposite.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by biohacker42 on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @04:18PM (#596636)
I'd say the main difference is emotional.

Yes, and I'd go further and say that it is specifically a much greater then average empathy intensity which leads to great and moving art.

And that can hurt emotionally just as much as being an elite athlete can hurt you physically.

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by amichail on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @04:43PM (#596686)
This is a subset of open-ended creativity. Another subset would be web 2.0 say and that rarely leads to "great and moving art".
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by asciilifeform on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @05:30PM (#596764)
> Most mathematicians would probably not do very well in the open-ended creativity of writing a novel

Lewis Carroll

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by silentOpen on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @06:52PM (#596931)
Most mathematicians are Lewis Carroll?!
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by biohacker42 on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @04:14PM (#596629)
My guess is that the average artists and writer is LESS creative then the average scientist. If for no other reason, then because the barrier to entry is much lower. Do you need anything besides attitude to be an artists? And science is hard and intensely creative work. And for that matter, so is engineering.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by vorador on Thursday May 07, 2009 @12:54AM (#597447)
You've got an interesting vision of artists.

Don't you think that creating requires at least as much dedication as science ? After all, in art you never know that you're right, whereas in science you could verify it quite easily.

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by thwarted on Thursday May 07, 2009 @02:58AM (#597576)
The creativity in science does not come from the verification stage, but from the stage where you figure out how to attack a problem and formulate theories.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by vorador on Thursday May 07, 2009 @05:57AM (#597705)
Yes but in the end you know if your right or wrong. Could you tell that Edgar Varèse was wrong when he composed atonal music ?
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by thwarted on Thursday May 07, 2009 @12:02PM (#598130)
The "end" of science isn't the verification stage either. If you're wrong, you use that to refine your theories and research strategy, using creativity, and continue testing.

You hear artists say things like "This work isn't done yet, something is missing", as if that's some kind of exceptional state for the artist, yet they never actually complete it. Do legitimate scientists say that? I wouldn't think so, since continuous refinement the default state of science.

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by vorador on Thursday May 07, 2009 @02:11PM (#598384)
I didn't use the right expression. I wanted to say that with science, there's an objective way to assess the validity of a method.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by thwarted on Friday May 08, 2009 @02:09AM (#599277)
So it takes less creativity to advance in an objective field?
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by vorador on Friday May 08, 2009 @06:58AM (#599470)
I didn't say that. Art and science require a different kind of creativity, and it's irrelevant to compare them.

And I don't think that the only thing needed to be an artist is an "attitude".

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by biohacker42 on Thursday May 07, 2009 @09:39AM (#597890)
I play a bit of music, I suck, but I do play, and I can absolutely tell you I KNOW when it's wrong. Not just out of tune but WRONG. And as the grand parent poster pointed out, the creativity in science isn't in the verification part.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by vorador on Thursday May 07, 2009 @02:10PM (#598379)
You should listen to some atonal music. It may sound wrong but it's because of our culture (western music is based on scales, atonal music is not).
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by pedalpete on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @02:41PM (#596444)
The author states '. Evolutionary theory suggests that in order for them to be still here, there must be some kind of survival advantage to them.'

However, if this were true, wouldn't that mean illnesses like Cancer would also have a survival advantage?

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by Bleys on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @03:26PM (#596543)
Your statement makes some unsafe assumptions. Mental state has a strong effect on ability to reproduce and raise offspring. Cancer rarely has an onset early enough to be a factor in this and the traits aren't something that can be "sensed" by potential reproductive partners. Evolution is blind to debilitations that don't impact reproductive ability (this is the same reason our natural healthy lives aren't much longer, on average, than the time it takes for us to be successful grandparents).

Maybe in a few hundred years with a society that stagnated with the exception of a strong stigma being placed on reproduction with people pre-disposed to cancer you'd see a natural reduction in the traits.

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by bazbarfoo on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @03:16PM (#596518)
Well, cancer doesn't typically kill you before you're able to reproduce.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by cubix on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @05:18PM (#596737)
Similarly, schizophrenia doesn't usually kick in until your early 20's for males, and early 30's for females, which leaves plenty of time for reproduction, especially in centuries past when we grew up faster.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by silentOpen on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @06:57PM (#596945)
I found this claim dubious as well. It incorrectly assumes that evolution will cull 'bad' traits and reward 'good' ones. Tell me, what is the evolutionary advantage of the appendix? Fingerprints? The number of human chromosomes?

All we know is that these traits are survivable which says nothing of any advantage or disadvantage they may confer. The author (of the article and this comment) needs to understand evolution better.

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by davi on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @04:26PM (#596654)
"Disposable Soma" theory of aging: in species subject to high levels of predation or death due to other random events, it may be more adaptive to pump energy into reproducing rather than fighting cancer and otherwise maintaining the body.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=V5Ff8eAwO...

Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by Evgeny on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @09:07PM (#597194)
Now I have an important question. How should I properly take myself to the brink of insanity in order to boost creativity and flexibility of thought? Something to think about ...
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by nop on Thursday May 07, 2009 @12:43AM (#597432)
Haven't a whole lot of ideas been attributed to drugs over the years? It would seem like a effective starting point for insanity with the added benefit of reverting to your sane old self when it's over. Or so I'd assume, I've never done drugs (beyond caffeine, nicotine and alike).
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by adrianwaj on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @05:13PM (#596729)
Speaking of creativity - contact me to brainstorm a brand name, product name, slogan or even strategy to a certain extent. No fee charged - a HN special.
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by zandorg on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @03:21PM (#596530)
Paranoia is a useful tool in business, according to Andy Grove of Intel. Don't leave anything to chance!
Re:Creative minds: the links between mental illness and crea... by adrianwaj on Wednesday May 06, 2009 @05:14PM (#596732)
Microsoft cultivated a culture of paranoia, I suppose that was about stomping little startups, and executing a "reach and extend" on the ones they couldn't do anything about.