This. Seems like a few lines taken out of context, and you can make anything seem bad if you take it out of context.

Sex - Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don't ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick. - http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_...

Sounds bad out of context sure, but in context he is talking about when you are about to have sex with the woman, in a private location (or whatever). You are in the act of it, not forcing yourself on a woman you just met in a bar.

Personally, I can see nothing wrong with this. Sure, the wording could possibly be better or less crass maybe, but if the book was to go to publish then there would be the time to go through that phase. All books go through edits.

Usual overreaction to everything that may seem slightly anti-feminist.

As josh2600 says above, there are similar books to this already, maybe we should start rallying Amazon et al too?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Game-Penetrating-Society-Artists/d... http://www.amazon.com/The-Pickup-Artist-Improved-Seduction/d... http://www.themysterymethod.com/

The excerpted quotes of advice were pretty damn rapey.

The problem is that many (every one I've seen) of these "seduction" manuals are written in a way that is hostile toward women.

Would you mind listing some of the quotes you found "rapey"?

The blog post linked from the kickstarter blog post includes lots of examples of what most people would consider to be "rapey"

    “Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub 
    her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. 
    Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your 
    advances.”

http://caseymalone.com/post/53339539674/this-is-not-fucking-...

According to the author, that was taken from a section on what to do once already in a private setting:

"The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around."

Out of context, yes, that's awfully rude. But, given the predicating situation, it is not nearly as much so.

You are aware rape usually occurs in private settings. Just because some one has decided to go to a private place with you does not mean they've given consent. And this kind of behavioural priming will gear men to steam roll over someone who isn't giving consent, hence sexual assault.

He doesn't say "Now, get her somewhere no one can hear her. Be sure to have your duct tape handy and then force your hand down her pants..."

It's a piece of advice on how to start being physical with a girl you're dating. So many guys will have a girl that's interested over to drink and watch a movie and just sit there a couch cushion away. Put yourself in your 16-20 year old shoes.

I'm assuming you don't really think that all rape involves having duct tape handy or making sure you're where nobody can hear her. A comment like this presumes that rape must be violent to be rape; that's simply not true.

That doesn't really sound rapey to me, but I can see how people see things like don't ask for permission and be dominant and force her as rapey. Really though, it is the difference between going for the kiss and stopping when she turns her head (rebuff your advances) and asking "may I kiss you". Any good salesman (and that is what you are doing in a club, selling yourself) knows that one of them gives a much better result, but neither is rape (kissing her even when she says no would likely be assult, but not rape as no genitalia is involved).

Quotes about intimate behaviour taken out of context will always seem rapey. Sure, doing this to someone you never met before is creepy at least. Picking a girl you spent a lot of time with and putting her on your lap when she's already shown she's comfortable with physical contact is rapey how?

The expression there is escalation. And the author is as clear as he can be that if she says no at any point, you back off.

I think "rapey" would be more appropriate here if that escalated to holding her down, forcing her clothes off and violating her. Instead, a lot of women enjoy that kind of interaction when you're already fooling around(which is what section of the guide its from) - and if they don't, they can quite easily refuse such an advance in a number of ways.

So, like when a car sales man insists you sit in the expensive car to see how it feels, so one is forced to rebuff him? Sounds similar yo me.

Why isn't this just taking the initiative then? Being proactive?

It seem to me that these days men are expected to sit around, do nothing, say little, and have a lawyer ready.

I doubt that anyone in a normal situation would consider that to have anything to do with rape.

sure!

“Pull out your cock and put her hand on it. Remember, she is letting you do this because you have established yourself as a LEADER. Don’t ask for permission, GRAB HER HAND, and put it right on your dick.“

Don't bother including the context of that, it would ruin the 'rapey' narrative.

Not even a bit.

I would guess that people buying a seduction guide don't really understand 'women' - in that they believe that women are somehow different, unapproachable and alien to them. The misogyny stems from the book not teaching these people that women are equal and worthy of respect, but instead teaching them to ignore consent and be an 'alpha bro' stereotype.

You don't have to disrespect women to understand that they largely want the guy to make the first move. I don't get what all the hate here is about.

To me, that sounds like 'generalisations about women aren't disrespectful to women' - maybe it's a cultural thing or just the social circles I hang around with but I find it sexist.

I don't see it as ignoring consent. If you're on a date with a girl and you hold her hand without asking her, that's not sexual assault or being an alpha bro. If you're having a lively conversation and touch her arm, that's not sexual assault or creepiness, it's being a human and engaging the person you're interacting with.

We all know douche bags that make girls uncomfortable and push the line. We all hate them. They've probably (almost definitely) never read this book. A book/guide like this isn't a bro factory, and won't do anything to an existing bro that a night out with another bro wouldn't do.

Should timid guys trying to seek a companion try to emulate some portion of it? Probably. Friend-zoning is big with timid guys because they never broach the physical bubble. If a nervous guy aims to emulate 100% of this advice they'll probably successfully emulate 20% of it.

I guess my problem with it is if you're writing a book to educate nervous, timid, perhaps less experienced guys about interactions with people you're attracted to, it'd be nice to educate them in a way that teaches respect and kindness, not objectification

> And not go up and rape a woman, but perhaps take a chance and put their hand on the girls shoulder during conversation to show interest, where they might have otherwise oddly looked away from them. Also, there's a huge difference between personal conduct in a night club and in a library.

Touching someone you don't know is a no-no and many people find that form of contact (even in a night club) to be disturbing. Touching someone without their permission is just something you shouldn't be doing.

>Touching someone without their permission is just something you shouldn't be doing.

I think its pretty clear reading the comments on this post who has actual experience in typical social settings and who doesn't. (Hint: you don't)

Ah of course, respecting people's physical boundaries makes me anti-social.

Respecting people's physical boundaries does NOT mean verbally requesting permission to enter their personal airspace! Why must you guys pretend non verbal communication doesn't exist?

Oh please, we're now comparing touching someone's shoulder in a night club with sexual assault? If you don't want any contact at all with other human beings you probably shouldn't be in a night club.

There is a difference between accidental contact from being in public and having someone intentionally do the kind of shit the kickstarter project was advocating. Also, being at a night club is not an automatic invitation to touch someone, saying so is implying that women deserve the unwanted contact put upon them.

Or anywhere in the public for that matter.

You should go to Latin America and tell them that they've been interacting in a universally inappropriate way all this time.

See, this is exactly the sort of ridiculous, reactionary nonsense at the heart of these crusades. No, touching someone's shoulder is not rape. You may define yourself as the moral minority, selflessly protecting everyone from imaginary evils, but your opinion is a tiny, minuscule, insignificant minority. Virtually everyone disagrees with you.

I didn't say touching someone's shoulder was rape, but you don't have the right to touch someone if they don't want you to or have affirmed that you may.