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Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by jgrahamc on Monday June 17, 2013 @06:27AM (#5892354)
If you want to have data storage that's secure from the NSA then you are going to need to do client side encryption. Moving your data to a company/country that promises not to access it isn't going to cut it.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by downandout on Monday June 17, 2013 @10:07AM (#5893192)
Encryption won't help you, since a judge will simply throw you in jail for contempt until you cough up the key or give them a copy of the decrypted data. Honestly, in this hostile government environment, if you have something worth protecting you need to have a "dead man switch" on your data. Unless you take an action every few days (which you can't if in jail) then your data gets deleted.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by pronoiac on Monday June 17, 2013 @11:51AM (#5893866)
I may be misreading this, but I think there's a big difference between "being readily accessible to the NSA" and "taking a judge to make it available."
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by downandout on Monday June 17, 2013 @12:11PM (#5893979)
If, through whatever means, they become interested enough in your data, they can just go judge shopping until they find one that decides that NSA suspicion is enough to issue a search warrant.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by rosser on Monday June 17, 2013 @02:48PM (#5895107)
True enough, but that scales very poorly, while their current approach demonstrably scales rather well.

In a game of picking one's battles, that seems like an easy win; I'll worry about contempt charges and rubber hoses some other day.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by rsync on Monday June 17, 2013 @12:51PM (#5894254)
Agreed.

A provider can give you all the assurances in the world, but the real assurance is using your own encryption with your own best practice and controlling the data store as it exists on the providers filesystem.

This is why it's important to give users a raw, open filesystem that they can manipulate any way they see fit, and not a fancy, highly abstracted backing store with a pretty GUI on the front.

Without a substantive commitment to open standards and open platforms, this is just a PR move.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by noarchy on Monday June 17, 2013 @06:42AM (#5892397)
I have to agree. The user needs control over their encryption.

Taking advantage of Norway's laws is fine, until the day that those laws go sour on you.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by switch007 on Monday June 17, 2013 @06:46AM (#5892410)
Don't you need a combination of encryption AND no law forcing you to reveal the key?
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by richardw on Monday June 17, 2013 @08:39AM (#5892792)
If so, then the law essentially forces you to give your files up and no server location will protect you.

For any person who is not being forced into giving their keys up, encrypting their own files must be safer than hoping a cloud provider won't freely hand them over to the US government.

This is especially true for non-US citizens, who seem to have no protection at all. Even the earlier whistle-blowers don't consider us anything but open season: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowd...

Fine. If you're foreign, encrypt your files and store them anywhere you like. If you're a US citizen, do the same and know that the government only has them when they force you to hand the keys over.

(Barring them being able to hack them some other way, e.g. simply grabbing your keys off your machine.)

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by vog on Monday June 17, 2013 @07:02AM (#5892449)
The law that might force you to reveal the key depends on where you are, not where your hoster is.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by Sami_Lehtinen on Monday June 17, 2013 @07:19AM (#5892507)
Good luck, I have terabytes of random data. I can always provide you OTP key, and create what ever content I want you to see. (Malleable encryption)
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by vidarh on Monday June 17, 2013 @07:32AM (#5892554)
Stay away from the UK - here a judge can throw you in jail for failure to provide keys, even if there's no evidence you still have the keys, and said judge would pretty much be guaranteed to believe that you did not hand over the correct keys if the result is garbage.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by scott_w on Monday June 17, 2013 @08:09AM (#5892684)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/14/ripa_self_incriminat...

A couple of people have been convicted of refusing to hand over their encryption key.

It's worth noting that this is a separate offence, so there's a determinate prison sentence. You can't be held in contempt of court for refusing to hand it over.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by aianus on Monday June 17, 2013 @10:45PM (#5897227)
If you claim the encryption was done using a One Time Pad, you can pick any result you want, generate the corresponding key, and hand that over.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_pad

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by vog on Thursday June 20, 2013 @04:05AM (#5910826)
Unfortunately, the OTP is always as large as the encrypted data. So strictly speaking, this is not really "encrypted data + password" but more of a "split data into two random-looking parts". In particular, this is nothing you can keep in your head or print on paper.

You'd have to keep it on a separate storage medium. And if you have to hand out the done medium, what's preventing them to get your second medium? And if you are able to keep that second medium secret and safe, why don't you store the whole unencrypted data on it in the first place?

Either way: OTPs are really cool, but I don't think they have any relevance here.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by Ntrails on Monday June 17, 2013 @08:00AM (#5892658)
I think this might be slight hyperbole but can you link to some cases/incidents for support?

Cheers.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by michaelt on Monday June 17, 2013 @08:08AM (#5892680)
It's not actually that common, but there have been at least 3 people prosecuted:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11479831

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/11/ripa_iii_figures/

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by Ntrails on Monday June 17, 2013 @09:35AM (#5893020)
That's in line with what I expected, thanks. Specifically to read:

"Of the 15 individuals served, 11 did not comply with the notices. Of the 11, seven were charged and two convicted."

Whilst they may have been incarcerated since the report, at the least it would seem that there is some evidence based procedure to determine "guilt" in terms of whether you are able to produce the key or not.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by mike-cardwell on Monday June 17, 2013 @07:10AM (#5892484)
Or the law of the country you are extradited to.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by at-fates-hands on Monday June 17, 2013 @12:43PM (#5894197)
The slippery slope in all of this is the application of the law.

Sure, if the government was going after someone like Steve Muller (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/04/gsm-researcher/) you'd want him to be able to keep his stuff from prying eyes.

What about a Suadi National accused of plotting terror attacks in NYC? Would you want the same laws applied to him? Or would you want to able to force someone like this to de-crypt their files in order to stop an attack?

I really don't know what the right answer is, but sometimes laws intended to keep us safe, also give shelter to bad guys.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by icelancer on Monday June 17, 2013 @02:35PM (#5895013)
>I really don't know what the right answer is, but sometimes laws intended to keep us safe, also give shelter to bad guys.

Americans inherently know this. We were brought up with the idea that freedom isn't free and that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Just because it is more convenient to violate the civil liberties of all to catch a few bad actors doesn't mean it is what our country is all about.

Europeans often find that sentiment ridiculous. But that is just the cost of privacy and liberty - one that our forefathers were welcome to pay.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by s1kx on Monday June 17, 2013 @06:59AM (#5892440)
Good suggestion, I've been using Amazon Glacier with the CloudBerry backup software which supports client-side AES encryption (http://www.cloudberrylab.com/amazon-glacier-backup-software....) and couldn't ask for more. Of course you will have to trust CloudBerry not to put a backdoor in their Software, but it seems there are no OSS alternatives right now that work as easily.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by richdougherty on Monday June 17, 2013 @11:04PM (#5897286)
Duplicity (http://duplicity.nongnu.org/) and its nice frontend Déjà Dup (https://launchpad.net/deja-dup). Client-side encryption, multiple backends.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by jgrahamc on Monday June 17, 2013 @07:02AM (#5892451)
tarsnap
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by tigerente on Monday June 17, 2013 @07:16AM (#5892502)
From their website, it seems that tarsnap can't be counted as OSS: "The Tarsnap client code is built around the open source libarchive archive handling library. While the Tarsnap code is not distributed under an open source license..."
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by jgrahamc on Monday June 17, 2013 @07:21AM (#5892513)
Here's the source code: https://www.tarsnap.com/download.html

This is the license:

Unless specified otherwise in individual files, the contents of this package is covered by the following copyright, license, and disclaimer:

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 Colin Percival All rights reserved.

Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, without modification, is permitted for the sole purpose of using the "tarsnap" backup service provided by Colin Percival.

THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by arethuza on Monday June 17, 2013 @08:21AM (#5892718)
My reading of that is that you aren't allowed to redistribute any modifications or use it for anything other than accessing the tarsnap service.

So not really open source software in any sense that I understand.

[NB My comments is not intended as a criticism of tarsnap or Colin's licensing policy - he wrote it so, in my book, he can license it any way he wants.]

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by sigil on Monday June 17, 2013 @10:12AM (#5893223)
> Redistribution and use...without modification, is permitted for the sole purpose of using the "tarsnap" service.

(emphasis mine) This sounds like there are no restrictions on distributing modified source / binaries.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by cperciva on Monday June 17, 2013 @04:55PM (#5895889)
Quite the opposite: No permission is given to distribute modified versions, so you're not allowed to do it.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by bnr on Monday June 17, 2013 @09:58AM (#5893128)
It's open source, allright. Free Software is the term you are looking for.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by throwaway2048 on Monday June 17, 2013 @01:21PM (#5894471)
Free to distribute is one of the fundamental defining things about open source [1]. Lets not water it down to the point of meaninglessness like words like `open' currently are.

[1]http://opensource.org/osd

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by graue on Monday June 17, 2013 @08:56AM (#5892851)
The Tarsnap client code isn't Open Source, but the source code is available, which means it can be audited.

s1kx's caveat ("Of course you will have to trust CloudBerry not to put a backdoor in their Software") therefore doesn't apply (as strongly, anyway) to Tarsnap.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by andreaso on Monday June 17, 2013 @06:51AM (#5892422)
While I mostly agree I also think that having some legal/jurisdictional protection is a good thing. If nothing else for the case where there turn out to be an exploitable weakness in the client side encryption you are using.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by gizzlon on Monday June 17, 2013 @09:23AM (#5892966)
If you want to have data storage that's secure from the NSA then you are going to need to do client side encryption

Better not use an encryption with ties to the US government then ;)

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by sreitshamer on Monday June 17, 2013 @11:55AM (#5893884)
Yes. If you want your data to be secure, secure it yourself.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by chris_mahan on Monday June 17, 2013 @01:03PM (#5894342)
Which goes back to the old saying: If you want something done right, do it yourself.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by qw on Monday June 17, 2013 @09:15AM (#5892933)
According to the FAQ they are encrypted client side

http://www.jottacloud.com/faq/

"Yes, all datatraffic between your computer and Jottacloud is encrypted with 256 bits AES high grade encryption, which makes it virtually impossible for unauthorized persons to use the information being sent."

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by meritt on Monday June 17, 2013 @10:34AM (#5893366)
That is just referring to SSL.
Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by nandhp on Monday June 17, 2013 @04:09PM (#5895603)
SSL keeps your data (relatively) safe from Sweden, though.

And Denmark, too, as my traceroutes seem to show.

Re:Norwegian backup provider promises NSA-free data storage ... by xmcri on Monday June 17, 2013 @10:33AM (#5893357)
I believe this refers to HTTPS.