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Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by ChuckMcM on Friday June 14, 2013 @01:34PM (#5881197)
I am convinced that at some point some smart sod will figure out how to create a 'high' by using something along the lines of this. Put on a headband, flick the switch, and blam! high as a kite. Turn the switch off, and back to being sober.

When that happens, the world will change in a very unpredictable way. Billions, perhaps trillions of dollars that are part of the drug trade will suddenly have no where to go. All the social aspects of shared inebriation will still be in place but most if not all of the economic aspects will be killed.

I expect my kids will get to witness this change.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by msluyter on Friday June 14, 2013 @01:39PM (#5881212)
I think what you've just described is Larry Niven's "wirehead."

In Larry Niven's Known Space stories, a wirehead is someone who has been fitted with an electronic brain implant (called a "droud" in the stories) to stimulate the pleasure centres of their brain. In the Known Space universe, wireheading is the most addictive habit known (Louis Wu is the only given example of a recovered addict), and wireheads usually die from neglecting themselves in favour of the ceaseless pleasure. Wireheading is so powerful and easy that it becomes an evolutionary pressure, selecting against that portion of Known Space humanity without self-control. Wireheading need not use an actual brain implant; the pleasure centre can be remotely activated by a small device called a "tasp" (important in the Ringworld novels).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction)

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by gwern on Friday June 14, 2013 @02:00PM (#5881360)
We already have wireheading, but the surgery is too invasive for it to be anything but an obscure curiosity.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by nazgulnarsil on Friday June 14, 2013 @04:11PM (#5882192)
There is a lot of ambiguity about whether we are able to activate pleasure or merely activate wanting.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by jlgreco on Friday June 14, 2013 @04:19PM (#5882246)
Seems pretty easy to test, though hard to test ethically perhaps. Wire someone up, flip the switch, tell them that they can turn it off if they don't like it. If they like it, then is it not by definition pleasure? Perhaps they find "wanting" to be pleasurable, but I know that I for one do not.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by nazgulnarsil on Friday June 14, 2013 @04:31PM (#5882317)
it has been tried on humans only twice AFAIK
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by bumbledraven on Friday June 14, 2013 @06:41PM (#5882939)
Details/cite?
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by s_baby on Friday June 14, 2013 @08:37PM (#5883341)
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by nazgulnarsil on Friday June 14, 2013 @10:15PM (#5883623)
hadn't seen this. Thank you!
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by s_baby on Saturday June 15, 2013 @06:45AM (#5884701)
There was a particular case study I can't find that documented intense euphoria. To the point the subjects were borderline dysfunctional, like the rats with the cocaine dispensing lever experiment.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by nazgulnarsil on Tuesday June 18, 2013 @12:52AM (#5897633)
brb heading to Hong Kong for illicit surgery.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by gwern on Friday June 14, 2013 @09:15PM (#5883426)
I'm not sure there's any real practical difference as far as utility or the negative effects go.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by RobotCaleb on Friday June 14, 2013 @03:21PM (#5881876)
For a slightly different take on it, see the Red Dwarf Novel "Better than Life"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Than_Life

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by jholman on Friday June 14, 2013 @05:11PM (#5882536)
Also explored at length in God Is An Iron, a short story by Spider Robinson, extended into the novel Mindkiller. Unlike in Ringworld, where wireheading/tasps are a MacGuffin, they're the central plot point in GIAI/Mindkiller.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by pstuart on Friday June 14, 2013 @06:50PM (#5882985)
A great story (and awesome title).
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by ryanmcbride on Friday June 14, 2013 @06:34PM (#5882902)
This is what I thought of immediately too.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by jlgreco on Friday June 14, 2013 @02:51PM (#5881699)
I don't know. That is basically the concept around synthehol from Star Trek, but I have never been convinced that such a substance would actually be as good as alcohol. Being able to easily "turn it off" does not seem particularly desirable to me, part of the allure of alcohol is a submission of sorts. Making the decision to not be able to make rational decisions, with no tap-out.

Edit: Figure out how to do it with other sorts of drugs, like non-recreational stimulants, and I would be all over it. Caffeine that I can turn off when I get home? Yes please.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by larrys on Friday June 14, 2013 @02:26PM (#5881529)
"Billions, perhaps trillions of dollars that are part of the drug trade "

Serious question. If the friction is removed (illegality is friction) and this process is legal and available what will prevent people from deteriorating into 24/7 pleasure seekers (much like some people get addicted and spend their life in crack houses?)

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by glenra on Friday June 14, 2013 @03:09PM (#5881814)
Where cocaine was legal, people used the cocoa leaf to make a tea they drank all the time, the way we drink coffee or caffeinated soda. When heroin was legal (from the Bayer company!), addicts took it in pill form and it caused no particular social or financial or health problems - the primary negative effect of long-term heroin use is constipation.

The vast majority of the harm illegal drugs do to people is due to the drugs being illegal; it has nothing to do with characteristics inherent to the chemistry of the drugs.

(I recommend the book Licit and Illicit Drugs. You can read it here online: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cumen... )

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by eurleif on Friday June 14, 2013 @05:11PM (#5882538)
>people used the cocoa leaf to make a tea they drank all the time, the way we drink coffee or caffeinated soda.

Coca leaf tea is one thing. What about crack? Don't say it would never have been invented without criminalization; everything is invented eventually.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by chongli on Friday June 14, 2013 @05:19PM (#5882576)
>What about crack?

What about it? Serious drug addiction is a mental health problem. We'll never solve this problem without focusing on it directly. Trying to "get drugs off the streets" is focusing on the symptom, not the cause.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by eurleif on Friday June 14, 2013 @05:22PM (#5882589)
I tend to agree, but the comment I was responding to was claiming that drugs only cause harm because they're illegal.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by glenra on Friday June 14, 2013 @05:55PM (#5882750)
When drugs are illegal, the economics of an illegal market tends to push them towards more concentrated highs. When heroin was legal people took it in pill form, which is much safer than "shooting up" but is a relatively inefficient delivery mechanism so you don't use it when the chemical gets to be really expensive per unit volume.

When alcohol was legal SOME people went for the harder stuff but beer was a lot cheaper and more common; under prohibition, whiskey was cheaper than beer. If you are selling an illegal product, your legal risk is generally proportional to the volume of product being smuggled or kept so you want to maximize the number of effective doses per unit volume. The economics thus favors high-concentration forms of whatever drug. It also favors faster, more intense highs, in that if people are going to all that risk to get something they want to be sure the payoff is proportional and can't afford to wait around for the effect. So cocaine becomes more available relative to pot, and becomes available in more concentrated and more convenient forms as technology permits (versus the old way of making tea from cocoa leaves and using it as a pick-me-up beverage)

So yes, "crack cocaine" was the result of prohibition. Yet even crack could be used responsibly - it's exactly like regular powder cocaine or caffeine in that regard. But responsible use is more likely if it's legal.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by Shorel on Saturday June 15, 2013 @01:56PM (#5885760)
> whiskey was cheaper than beer

To be honest, whiskey is expensive only because it is a branding and social experiment that was successful, not because of the cost of manufacturing it.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by nairteashop on Friday June 14, 2013 @06:39PM (#5882928)
That's very interesting.

I haven't yet gone through the book you linked, but it appears from a quick glance at wikipedia that chronic cocaine usage does bring with it some fairly bad physical side-effects. Are you saying that chronic usage will be rare if cocaine were legal?

You seem right however about heroin: "Like most opioids, unadulterated heroin does not cause many long-term complications other than dependence and constipation." I had no idea!

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by glenra on Friday June 14, 2013 @07:46PM (#5883199)
If cocaine were legal, most people would tend to use it in milder forms, as they have done in the past. (eg, the recipe for coca-cola used to include cocaine).

With heroin, the physical harm is almost ENTIRELY due to illegality - when a heroin addict can get the drug cheaply and in a known dosage and use it safely, they don't really have a problem. Our moral puritanism says being addicted is JUST BAD so we pass laws that CAUSE most of the harm we attribute to the drug.

Cocaine isn't quite like that. If you take a lot of cocaine it can cause nasty psychological symptoms - paranoia during use, depression between uses. On the other hand, cocaine is quite a lot like caffeine (and other stimulants) in this regard. Too much of any psychoactive drug is bad, but in moderation it's safe enough and has often been used by truck drivers who need to stay awake. Or people who need to be extra creative (eg: Robin Williams)

Even for this drug, the net harm of illegality almost certainly exceeds the net benefit. One could imagine a world in which making cocaine illegal stopped anyone from doing cocaine, but that's not the world we actually live in. The world we actually live in, it's generally accepted that our last two presidents used cocaine in school - it's not really fair to throw people in jail and take away their kids and their stuff because they were poor and used cocaine while people who are rich and use cocaine just get away with it. Which is what the current regime seems to amount to.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by temp453463343 on Friday June 14, 2013 @06:19PM (#5882839)
"people used the cocoa leaf to make a tea they drank all the time"

It's really hard to quantify what effect has been of this. Bolivia by all metrics is an underdeveloped country. Has this contributed to it or not? No way to really know..

Also I'm not convinced about the social effects of heroin. I think it DID have effects on society and that's why it was eventually outlawed.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by ChuckMcM on Friday June 14, 2013 @02:47PM (#5881669)
It's an excellent question, I don't think its possible to predict the outcome. In places where heroin is both easily available (low friction) and there is little social stigma attached to it, you get folks wasting away in opium dens, but not everyone who could be in those dens, are.

No doubt a lot will depend on how functional folks can be while 'high'. I have known people who were essentially 'pill heads' or addicted to oxycodone such that they were constantly under the influence but they were still able to do the job assigned to them. (I make no judgement as to whether their performance was improved or hampered by their drug use). Perhaps folks could dial it up or dial it down depending on their need.

But what scares policy maker types is that you have an unpredictable effect if something comes into existence. They will try hard to prevent its creation because of the possibility of bad outcomes even in the presence of the possibility of good outcomes (perhaps you'd have lower workplace rage events if people could dial in a mild soporific state).

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by grannyg00se on Friday June 14, 2013 @02:56PM (#5881730)
But without the illegality and high cost, it's not so bad. You get a bunch of people hanging out high without all the robbery, extortion, prostitution, and organized crime.

A bunch of harmless pleasure seekers doesn't seem like a major issue without all that other stuff.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by larrys on Friday June 14, 2013 @04:31PM (#5882315)
"You get a bunch of people hanging out high"

Doesn't that assume though that the "bunch" is a bunch of the same size?

I would argue that the bunch will become larger that is that more people with a predisposition will get hooked on the high.

Of course we don't know that number. Could be 1% higher could be 20% higher. Compared to the other societal costs people might judge it to be a fair tradeoff. Or not.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by anigbrowl on Friday June 14, 2013 @06:41PM (#5882942)
Mostly true, but you will still have some of the negatives you mention, just as we do in relation to alcoholism. That's not a reason to maintain prohibition, but if we're making drugs legal then we should channel some of the tax revenue to harm mitigation, which is inevitably going to be necessary.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by rmc on Friday June 14, 2013 @04:47PM (#5882398)
Alcohol is legal and not high cost. So either alcohol is different from those drugs (if so how?) or its very similar, which means this drugs will have the same ills as alcohol.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by networked on Friday June 14, 2013 @03:32PM (#5881949)
"[T]hough we may not want to be wireheaded now, our wireheaded selves would probably prefer to be wireheaded."

The Less Wrong community has been discussing questions related to wireheading for years now. To get a taste for their discussion on the subject check out the post at http://lesswrong.com/lw/1oc/you_cannot_be_mistaken_about_not... (where the above quote comes from) and everything it links to.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by Ihmahr on Friday June 14, 2013 @03:52PM (#5882065)
Arn't most of us '24/7 pleasure seekers' even though we don't use drugs?
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by tzakrajs on Friday June 14, 2013 @05:34PM (#5882657)
I think the fear is that we will deteriorate into 24/7 pleasure receivers until we perish.
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by martythemaniak on Friday June 14, 2013 @01:46PM (#5881264)
Something like it exists (or is claimed to exist)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by Jun8 on Friday June 14, 2013 @05:34PM (#5882659)
I wouldn't expect anything to change, governments will declare it illegal and that device will be the new drug.

Note that there's nothing expensive about drugs, I remember reading that the cost of manufacturing a gram of cocaine is about 50 cents

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by halorhodopsin on Friday June 14, 2013 @05:35PM (#5882664)
i'm not convinced. the "high" of alcohol and benzodiazepenes is caused by GABA receptor agonism. the "high" of MDMA is caused by serotonin reuptake inhibition and dopamine release. the "high" of Ketamine is caused by NMDA receptor antagonism. the "high" of psychedelics like LSD or DMT are caused by a unique cocktail of selective agonism of serotonin, dopamine, and adrenergic receptor subtypes, and so on.

the one common element is that all "highs" are caused by ligands with very specific molecular properties binding to neurotransmitters. a headband will never be able to bind to a neurotransmitter.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by ChuckMcM on Friday June 14, 2013 @06:04PM (#5882783)
It is true you cannot bind to a neurotransmitter from a headband. The research that these efforts are based on involved direct activation of the neuron ganglia by inducing currents in them through the absorption of electromagnetic energy (in the case of DBS) and by increasing electron flow in the case of tDCS).

Hiker and Voger's work [1] (and a bunch of others, just look for DBS and dopamine) which looks at Dopamine response and Gandiga and Hummel [2] who look at tDCS and whether its effects are effective in neuroretraining, or in the case of our hobbyists, enhancing existing neurotraining.

[1] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mds.10297/abstrac...

[2] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1388245705...

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by halorhodopsin on Friday June 14, 2013 @07:15PM (#5883086)
hmm. tDCS and DBS are certainly really interesting technologies, but i still don't see them having any recreational mechanism. in the case that they can act as monoamine releasing agents, the absolute best case is that you can make a meth-band.

the second study is completely irrelevant to the point you were trying to make. not trying to be mean but i just don't understand how a study about the efficacy of tDCS in studies is related to possible recreational effects from tDCS/DBS.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by nitrogen on Friday June 14, 2013 @07:27PM (#5883127)
What is the difference if you find a way to switch on the neurons that make you believe your neurochemistry has changed?
Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by s_baby on Friday June 14, 2013 @08:33PM (#5883333)
>psychedelics like LSD or DMT are caused by a unique cocktail of selective agonism of serotonin, dopamine, and adrenergic receptor subtypes, and so on.

LSD breaks down almost instantly in the body yet the effects continue on for 10-12 hours. Receptor binding might be a trigger for these states but it's a stretch to say it's central to the bio-molecular cascade that then produces these states.

Re:Do It Yourself Brain Stimulation has Scientists Worried by anigbrowl on Friday June 14, 2013 @06:36PM (#5882913)
dollars that are part of the drug trade will suddenly have no where to go

I'm long on tie-dye. People will still enjoy advertising what sort of highs they enjoy.