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Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by twoodfin on Friday May 10, 2013 @10:43PM (#5689536)
Can someone explain to me why expansion of visa programs for skilled workers is so controversial? Hell, Mitt Romney wanted to "staple a green card" to every STEM diploma.

Why the need for these three dimensional Vulcan chess tactics if that's the goal?

My guess is because labor unions and the Democrats (generally) don't want to expand visas for skilled workers without "comprehensive" legalization. But I am definitely biased so I would not at all mind an alternative explanation.

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by auctiontheory on Friday May 10, 2013 @10:56PM (#5689560)
Expanding visa programs will be controversial so long as large numbers of Americans are unemployed.

This particular group is controversial (also) because they are taking a position on controversial non-immigration issues, such as oil drilling and pipelines.

"Controversial" doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It means that many people have strong arguments and emotions both for and against.

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by wahsd on Friday May 10, 2013 @11:47PM (#5689650)
That's because "immigration" in this country is actually veiled dilution of the worker pool, externalizing costs, lazy, inflation of limited resources and thereby self-perpetuating wealth creation, deflates source country pressures for improvement, and drains talent from other places.

It is a pernicious practice all around and only advantages the wealthy of the destination country, i.e., USA. It's destructive, poisoning, and exploitative all around for everyone else.

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by ajju on Friday May 10, 2013 @11:54PM (#5689662)
I am an immigrant, and coming here was constructive, sustaining and a very positive thing for me. I got a graduate degree here, and then started a startup that employs several people, enables our users to to access transportation much more easily (and in some cases safely) millions of times every year. I don't see how me coming to the United States has been a net loss for anyone.

I know (personally) at least 100 other people like me.

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by twelvechairs on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:09AM (#5689761)
Not to speak on behalf of GP, but I think the issue is not you as a successful permanent immigrant, but the way the system holds other potential immigrants out and permits some only on short-term visas who then get dumped back to their places of origin.
Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by ajju on Monday May 13, 2013 @05:52PM (#5701667)
"immigration" in this country....[is] destructive, poisoning, and exploitative all around for everyone else.

GP didn't single out immigrants who come here on short-term visas, but even if he had, I came here on a short term visa, and so did every single one of the 100 people I referred to. It is true that many had to go back to their places of origin. In some cases they suffered because of it, although I'd argue their place of origin benefited. In some cases they started startups after returning, and both they and their place of origin benefited.

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by icebraining on Friday May 10, 2013 @11:52PM (#5689657)
How does it not benefit the immigrants themselves?
Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by twoodfin on Friday May 10, 2013 @11:02PM (#5689571)
Are you sure? Because at least in the conservative spheres I pay attention to (admittedly of the less populist variety) almost no one opposes skilled visa expansion. All the light and heat is about legalization. I get the impression that if President Obama went on TV tomorrow and said "Comprehensive immigration reform is a bridge too far right now. Let's simplify and expand the process of legal immigration for skilled workers", then he'd have a bill on his desk in a week.
Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by yaok on Friday May 10, 2013 @11:23PM (#5689605)
Are you sure the democrats want to seen as the party that, during a time of record unemployment, brought in foreign workers to fill job openings?
Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by pg on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:31AM (#5689792)
The actual answer is much less colorful than the other answers in this thread. Increasing the number of visas for skilled workers is not that controversial. The problem is that it's part of a more general immigration bill, which is controversial.
Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by aspensmonster on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:52AM (#5689739)
The devil is in the details. What constitutes a "skilled" worker? The selling point of the H-1B program was that there really were high-paying jobs available that absolutely nobody state side was stepping up to the plate for, so they needed to bring in skilled immigrants who had the chops to take on these high-paying jobs. The imagery was that America's Best Companies were stalling because they couldn't find the "best and brightest."

Evidence suggests otherwise (http://www.epi.org/publication/bp356-foreign-students-best-b...). Now, I'm not saying you can't find H-1Bs with high salaries or genius intellects. The study linked simply says it's not a majority of the people coming in. Most of them are decidedly not "best and brightest" and certainly aren't pulling six figures annually. That is, the program isn't being used for its stated purpose. Rather, it certainly seems that the goal is _not_ to find local talent, even if it's there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU), because one wants to manipulate the meaning of "prevailing wage" and "qualified worker" to suit a lower labour cost margin.

As well, there are other economic indicators to consider. If there really is a widespread tech shortage you'd expect wages to rise. And you can see various market niches' wages spike at certain localized times of labor shortage. But you don't find high and increasing wages across the board, sustained for years at a time. That is, one of the key indicators of a crippling shortage, simply isn't there. The low unemployment rate in tech hubs like Silicon Valley is further perplexing in the face of a claim that the talent can't be found. When companies like Facebook whinge about having a hard time finding top talent, I get the feeling they're really just making an observation that finding people at the extreme of a bell curve is hard. Increasing the sample population doesn't make that search appreciably easier.

Mixed in with all of these observations, you'll typically find smaller details that make sense, even if they are latched onto bigger ideas that don't. A common objection is that of sending newly graduated foreigners back to their countries of origin rather than letting them stay here. I'd say it's a no-brainer they should be permitted to stay indefinitely. But that doesn't mean it's a no-brainer that we should rubber-stamp every single person with a tech background into an H-1B slot.

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by twoodfin on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:12AM (#5689766)
It's interesting to me that EPI is doing research/PR against expanding skilled visas. They're more or less a think tank/advocacy group for organized labor (check out their board of directors). Would they have a different agenda if the tech industry were more unionized?

Anyway, who cares if there's a "shortage" or not? If you're going to contribute hundreds of thousands of dollars to GDP, come on in! We'll find something for you to do!

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by aspensmonster on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:34AM (#5689796)
The whole point of the study was that the majority of folks coming in on visa programs like the H-1B aren't "going to contribute hundreds of thousands of dollars to GDP." We already have O visa programs for those kinds of individuals. Out of 65,000 H-1B applicant slots every year, I'd expect to see bigger economic waves if all of them were contributing hundreds of thousands or even millions to GDP.

Is there something wrong with the methodology of the study? I have a great deal of disdain for libertarian front groups like the Heritage Foundation and CATO Institute, but I don't immediately dismiss any study they come out with by virtue of their Boards. Mistaking the presence of an agenda for deliberate scientific dishonesty seems excessive; that the data may align with or contradict one's bias doesn't invalidate it either way.

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by bbbhn on Saturday May 11, 2013 @01:46AM (#5689812)
A) Your argument against H-1B's is disingenuous at best. And I'm curious, are you against expanding H-1B's but in favor of increasing the amount of low-skill immigrants and/or granting citizenship to illegal immigrants? If so, how do you reconcile your seemingly-contradictory stances?

B) Heritage is staunchly conservative, NOT libertarian.

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by aspensmonster on Saturday May 11, 2013 @02:43AM (#5689933)
>B) Heritage is staunchly conservative, NOT libertarian.

Apologies. I often find myself lumping them together. Granted, I see themselves lumping each other together as well when it's convenient, but that's beside the point.

>A) Your argument against H-1B's ... against expanding H-1B's ...

What argument against H-1Bs? I made the observation that the rhetoric of seeking out the "best and brightest" was largely unsubstantiated. I'm not against granting visas to highly skilled workers. I'd prefer we dispensed with the temporary, company-locked permission slips and proceeded directly to green card, or at least a long-term visa that didn't tie them to a sponsor and had a clear default path to citizenship should the bearer pursue it. My observation was that the "devil is in the details." Specifically the nature of what constitutes "skilled," particularly within the context of the rhetoric that drives the H-1B.

> ... but in favor of increasing the amount of low-skill immigrants and/or granting citizenship to illegal immigrants?

I don't have an issue with the presence of low-skill immigrants either and don't have a problem granting them visas. The rules behind work visas for "low-skill" labour are just as out of whack as they are for highly skilled labour. As for amnesty, I don't see much of a point in granting illegal immigrants automatic citizenship, primarily because a majority of illegal immigrants don't really want it. I'm sure they'd prefer not having to live in fear of ICE, but whether they wanted to be a citizen or not is another matter completely.

Though of course, comparing highly skilled labour with low-skill labour isn't an apples to apples comparison. Migrant labour isn't so much an immigration issue as it is an international economics issue. Which leads into what you're really asking me:

> how do you reconcile your seemingly-contradictory stances?

The real question you seem to have for me is far broader than "should we let highly skilled foreigners into our country if we cannot find a suitable native citizen to take the role?" Your question is one of what the role of immigrants are in a country. Under what basis are we to let people in? What does it mean to be a citizen and not just a tourist? Better yet, what is the motivation of someone who wants to immigrate? Why are they uprooting themselves?

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by metaphorm on Friday May 10, 2013 @10:51PM (#5689551)
I'm not an expert on this issue either but I think you're understanding it correctly. There are interest groups on both the left (protectionist labor unions) and the right (nativists) who are hostile to immigrant workers, in both high-skilled and blue collar positions. The "3 dimensional vulcan chess" approach here is an attempt to get congress to actually vote on the law even though it pisses off some entrenched groups. Its really really hard to get congress to do anything at all, let alone do something that pisses off some of the activists in the party bases.
Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by spamizbad on Friday May 10, 2013 @11:01PM (#5689567)
Leaving FWD.us has nothing to do with immigration. Zuck's political advocacy group FWD.us also funnels money to http://www.americansforaconservativedirection.com/ -- Which also advocates for the Keystone XL pipeline and more drilling etc. (And also the mostly DOA 'Gang-of-8' Republican plan for Immigration reform)

US politics is pretty cynical, but not quite cynical enough to blatantly play both sides like this.

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by metaphorm on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:39AM (#5689722)
I'm speculating here, but I think you're wrong and that this is exactly playing both sides. To me it looks like a quid pro quo arrangement where FWD.us helps a conservative cause (the pipeline) in exchange for cooperation for a immigration reform. Keep an eye on it. I'd expect to see some political grease applied to a liberal cause in the near future too. I think their game plan is to basically buy favors with senators until they've got enough votes to pass a law they actually care about.
Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by mynameishere on Friday May 10, 2013 @11:40PM (#5689637)
Because Econ 101. Jesus fucking holy Christ.

Can someone explain to me why otherwise intelligent people are so deliberately ignorant on this issue? Rich bastards want to screw ordinary people. That's it. That is all you need to know. It's dead simple. It's freshmen economics. More workers=lower wages. This has been going on for centuries.

Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by icebraining on Friday May 10, 2013 @11:47PM (#5689649)
Because immigrants are not really people, right?
Re:Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group by tnuc on Saturday May 11, 2013 @12:34AM (#5689717)
Good thing North Korea is keeping workers out, that's why North Korea is so rich and has such high wages.

Where did you study Econ 101?