News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by rayiner on Thursday May 02, 2013 @09:05PM (#5648255)
Or we need to make China play fair. Implement similar environmental regulations, worker safety regulations, etc.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by gbog on Friday May 03, 2013 @12:05AM (#5648757)
> make China play fair

You mean "play fair" as in "please do like we say and let your billion people be poor and eat raddish all year long"?

This is a joke. From Chinese (and most other parts of the world) standing point, the West has never played fair. It started with drug war, when British cannons forced the Chinese customs to open the doors to opium boats. Then it was nuclear power, when everyone was asked to NOT do as the US did and not try to get their hands on nukes. Now that Chinese people finally have their industrial revolution, and can start getting their head out of the mud, you're asking them to "play fair" and stop working hard because they are "stealing" your jobs? You are probably asking them to not buy 2 cars per family, to not use washing machine to wash their clothes, and to not take planes to discover the world's nice places, right? So it is pure "do like we say, do not do like we do", right?

A joke, I say.

Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by rayiner on Friday May 03, 2013 @12:12AM (#5648771)
The U.S. certainly didn't develop by undercutting China with cheap labor.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by vidarh on Friday May 03, 2013 @04:41AM (#5649399)
No, you undercut Europe. Including by holding on to slavery much longer than most other industrialized nations.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by ptaipale on Friday May 03, 2013 @09:24AM (#5649986)
I think it is approximately correct to say that no industrialized nation holds on to slavery. Slaves are not productive enough in industrial and post-industrial economies.

The point of US civil war was that the industrialized North wanted to rid of slavery and the agricultural South wanted to go on with slave-dependent growing of cotton etc.

Likewise, places where formal abolition of slavery was more recent (e.g. Kingdom of SA and Yemen until 1962, Oman until 1970, etc) are hardly industrial nations.

(Yes, this is not the complete picture and things are not straightforward or simple: compare to slave labor in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, etc, where some of it was used in industrial-type activities, and even R&D, as described by Solzhenitsyn in In The First Circle; however, you could describe these as solutions for war-time economy, and not sustainable.)

Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by vidarh on Thursday May 09, 2013 @09:30AM (#5680308)
I don't see the relevance. The point is that the US did start it's rise to power in much the same way as China: By undercutting the established industrialised base and treating people worse in the interrim. Same with Germany (undercut the British). The position of slavery today has no relevance to that: China thankfully doesn't need slavery to be able to undercut the US.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by alan_cx on Friday May 03, 2013 @04:46AM (#5649411)
As well as the other factors posted, the international brain drain also had a lot to do with it. The US didn't hack for secrets, it bought them by importing the brains. And that was fair enough, right?
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by nickpinkston on Friday May 03, 2013 @01:07AM (#5648908)
Yea, we just had the only viable industrial sector after a depression and two world wars...
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by grinich on Friday May 03, 2013 @03:17AM (#5649247)
It astounds me how many American's don't realize this, and instead attribue global dominance to "the American dream" or some crap.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by rayiner on Friday May 03, 2013 @10:44AM (#5650320)
They "don't realize" it because its un-economic. If free trade is Pareto efficient (it makes everyone better off), it makes no sense that America would prosper more from Europe being a burned out husk than from it being a well developed trading partner. At least that's what free-traders tell us: we benefit from China becoming rich.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by rayiner on Friday May 03, 2013 @01:21AM (#5648961)
The U.S. was very prosperous long before World War I and II.

And also, I see that argument and my take away is that the solution to our economic woes is to sabotage the industrial sector of places like China.

Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by nickpinkston on Friday May 03, 2013 @12:19PM (#5650872)
Sure, so was Germany, and they still are. Though we can probably attribute a lot of that pre-war dynamism to the abundance of untapped resources: land, water, minerals, etc. - which is about as arbitrary as being the last man standing industrially.

Liberal immigration policy and real opportunity (because of the previous) lead to an influx of people probably above average in their motivation / skills which probably helped a lot too. I wish we'd remember this lesson today...

I'm not trying to discount American culture / ideals. I love living in San Francisco because of this - most of the good of American culture without many of the downsides.

Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by peteretep on Friday May 03, 2013 @05:18AM (#5649462)
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by revenz on Friday May 03, 2013 @04:29AM (#5649376)
No. The U.S. never imported cheap labour and treated thouse people in ways deemed illegal in parts of its competition at the time.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by salvadors on Friday May 03, 2013 @05:22AM (#5649470)
This is said in the most sarcastic voice imaginable, right?
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by yen223 on Thursday May 02, 2013 @10:44PM (#5648545)
The good news is that China is starting to make headway in that respect. They now have tighter environmental laws, better working hours, and better hourly wages.

The bad news is that companies are now looking towards exploiting other countries like Bangladesh or Vietnam.

Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by wisty on Friday May 03, 2013 @02:47AM (#5649171)
The good news is, Bangladesh or Vietnam will now start to get rich enough for basic health and education.

The other good news is, that shouldn't result in a lot of US jobs being lost, as the consumer market is now bigger (with Chinese consumers starting to add to demand) and the supply of cheap labor won't increase by 300 million in 10 years (like it did when China opened up).

Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by pavs on Friday May 03, 2013 @05:09AM (#5649449)
I am in bangladesh and I am often sad to see people bring bangladesh garments industry as a example of exploiting poor people. While I am sure there are some exploitation going on, bangladesh is much much better off with the existence of the garments sector and poorly paid workers, considering the alternative.

Bangladesh garments sectors amount to 80% of their export business. It employs mostly poor village women who was house wife before, or house maids or beggars or seasonal work; all of which paid even less money than the garments industry does. Which is why, there are less people available for house maids, or seasonal farming work.

Garments workers who goes on strike for higher wage are the minority, because they somehow figured out the game that if they make enough noise and if the media picks it up the garments owner will be forced to raise the wage; even when they are well above the minimum wage for garments set up the government.

Seriously no one is forcing anyone to work at lower wage.

- There is a minimum wage set for garments workers, which might not be up to western standard, but people in bangladesh do quite good with it.

- There is no lack of garments work available in BD, if they don't like the wage or the working condition they can always go work somewhere else.

- While there exists poor working environments in the some garments, overwhelming most of them (from my personal experience) has pretty good standards with safe environment.