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Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by gbog on Friday May 03, 2013 @12:05AM (#5648757)
> make China play fair

You mean "play fair" as in "please do like we say and let your billion people be poor and eat raddish all year long"?

This is a joke. From Chinese (and most other parts of the world) standing point, the West has never played fair. It started with drug war, when British cannons forced the Chinese customs to open the doors to opium boats. Then it was nuclear power, when everyone was asked to NOT do as the US did and not try to get their hands on nukes. Now that Chinese people finally have their industrial revolution, and can start getting their head out of the mud, you're asking them to "play fair" and stop working hard because they are "stealing" your jobs? You are probably asking them to not buy 2 cars per family, to not use washing machine to wash their clothes, and to not take planes to discover the world's nice places, right? So it is pure "do like we say, do not do like we do", right?

A joke, I say.

Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by rayiner on Friday May 03, 2013 @12:12AM (#5648771)
The U.S. certainly didn't develop by undercutting China with cheap labor.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by vidarh on Friday May 03, 2013 @04:41AM (#5649399)
No, you undercut Europe. Including by holding on to slavery much longer than most other industrialized nations.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by ptaipale on Friday May 03, 2013 @09:24AM (#5649986)
I think it is approximately correct to say that no industrialized nation holds on to slavery. Slaves are not productive enough in industrial and post-industrial economies.

The point of US civil war was that the industrialized North wanted to rid of slavery and the agricultural South wanted to go on with slave-dependent growing of cotton etc.

Likewise, places where formal abolition of slavery was more recent (e.g. Kingdom of SA and Yemen until 1962, Oman until 1970, etc) are hardly industrial nations.

(Yes, this is not the complete picture and things are not straightforward or simple: compare to slave labor in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, etc, where some of it was used in industrial-type activities, and even R&D, as described by Solzhenitsyn in In The First Circle; however, you could describe these as solutions for war-time economy, and not sustainable.)

Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by vidarh on Thursday May 09, 2013 @09:30AM (#5680308)
I don't see the relevance. The point is that the US did start it's rise to power in much the same way as China: By undercutting the established industrialised base and treating people worse in the interrim. Same with Germany (undercut the British). The position of slavery today has no relevance to that: China thankfully doesn't need slavery to be able to undercut the US.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by alan_cx on Friday May 03, 2013 @04:46AM (#5649411)
As well as the other factors posted, the international brain drain also had a lot to do with it. The US didn't hack for secrets, it bought them by importing the brains. And that was fair enough, right?
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by nickpinkston on Friday May 03, 2013 @01:07AM (#5648908)
Yea, we just had the only viable industrial sector after a depression and two world wars...
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by grinich on Friday May 03, 2013 @03:17AM (#5649247)
It astounds me how many American's don't realize this, and instead attribue global dominance to "the American dream" or some crap.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by rayiner on Friday May 03, 2013 @10:44AM (#5650320)
They "don't realize" it because its un-economic. If free trade is Pareto efficient (it makes everyone better off), it makes no sense that America would prosper more from Europe being a burned out husk than from it being a well developed trading partner. At least that's what free-traders tell us: we benefit from China becoming rich.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by rayiner on Friday May 03, 2013 @01:21AM (#5648961)
The U.S. was very prosperous long before World War I and II.

And also, I see that argument and my take away is that the solution to our economic woes is to sabotage the industrial sector of places like China.

Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by nickpinkston on Friday May 03, 2013 @12:19PM (#5650872)
Sure, so was Germany, and they still are. Though we can probably attribute a lot of that pre-war dynamism to the abundance of untapped resources: land, water, minerals, etc. - which is about as arbitrary as being the last man standing industrially.

Liberal immigration policy and real opportunity (because of the previous) lead to an influx of people probably above average in their motivation / skills which probably helped a lot too. I wish we'd remember this lesson today...

I'm not trying to discount American culture / ideals. I love living in San Francisco because of this - most of the good of American culture without many of the downsides.

Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by peteretep on Friday May 03, 2013 @05:18AM (#5649462)
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by revenz on Friday May 03, 2013 @04:29AM (#5649376)
No. The U.S. never imported cheap labour and treated thouse people in ways deemed illegal in parts of its competition at the time.
Re:Shenzhen is Like Living in a City-Sized TechShop by salvadors on Friday May 03, 2013 @05:22AM (#5649470)
This is said in the most sarcastic voice imaginable, right?