It's an interesting question whether or not this should even be part of the gun control debate. IF, if, you accept the idea of a "right to die" (I do, FWIW), then people who voluntarily choose to end their lives using a firearm should not be counted as "gun deaths" in anything like the same way as homicides, or even accidental deaths.

Now granted, that's a controversial topic in it's own right, but it's something to consider. If somebody choose to die, does it really matter how they do it?

Of course, it also raises the issue of whether or not people who (try to) commit suicide really want to die or not, or are just "looking for help" or whatever the phrase is. I don't really have a stand on that.

Some subset of suicides are "right to die" cases, but given the prevalence of clinical depression, the notion that most suicides are the result of rational decisionmaking and not illness is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence.

FWIW, I am not making that specific claim. I'm just pointing out that there is another angle to consider, as far as whether or not the suicide issue should even be considered when talking gun-control.

I have no data, but I would venture the guess that suicide is far more prevalent among those with undiagnosed depressions, than those with undiagnosed ones.

Should we make suicide illegal just to keep the rate down?

I do care about misconceptions about suicidal depression, since depression is a serious risk for the community of people that use HN.

Treatable mental illness: depression, anxiety, etc. do not fall into this category. They are not terminal.

Proximity to an instrument of death when a person is contemplating suicide (due to treatable mental illness) is a very real issue. If there is no barrier in place, the rate of change from thought to action is astonishing.

It's also important to note intoxication plays a role in this same sort of escalation.

In these cases you're looking for anything which increases access (proximity) or reduces inhibition (chemicals). Eliminating these gives professionals and loved ones time to help.

I certainly see the general distinction you're making, but I'd say putting a gun to your head and pulling the trigger is removing any ambiguity from your intentions. I'd say the "cry for help" methods would be things like overdosing on pills, cutting wrists, etc.

And, of course it also complicates things that we can't talk to the people who succeed, and find out anything about their actual intentions. :-(

Usually, if someone physically healthy decides that (s)he doesn't want to live any more, we automatically declare that person mentally ill (even if no chemical imbalance seems to be present). It's implicitly stated that ending one's life is a decision that can't be taken rationally (unless a terminal physical illness is present). I find that quite disturbing.

I don't have a stand on that, because I think it's probably true more often than not, but I believe some people actually do simply make a rational, calculated, carefully weighed decision concluding that the pain they are experiencing outweighs whatever joy they experience, and decide to end the suffering. IOW, I'm one of the people who think that - for some people - suicide is a reasonable choice. And who am I to tell them it's not?

We all have our own crosses to bear, and empathy or no, none of us can ever truly understand someone else's pain, IMO.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/Suicide_DataSheet-...

Gun control debate in the US centers around several proposals: restricting semi-automatic firearms, restricting handguns in particular, and additional checks at firearm purchase time.

Problem is the first two:

A) Do not matter in regards to suicide. A semi-automatic rifle with a 30-round magazine is no more useful than a double barrel shotgun (a firearm type that is legal in most countries, even those that prohibit all other types of firearms).

B) Significantly turn gun owners (who are the ones mailing their constituents) against all kind of firearm regulation, including the last kind of measures, such as additional background checks, requirements to demonstrate safe handling, etc...

California has a ten day waiting period for firearm purchases and as a result has a lower firearm suicide rate despite the fact that handguns and semi-automatic firearms are readily available. While they're restricted to ten round magazines and -- in the case of military-style firearms -- require using a tool to release the magazine, it's unlikely that these laws matter much in regards to suicide.

> [gun control debate]

That wasn't very nice.