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Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by jdietrich on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @04:08AM (#5523823)
Here in the UK, we have a peculiar paradox regarding the rollout of fibre. We have what amounts to a telecoms duopoly, split between the old telephone monopoly (BT) and the sole national cable company (Virgin Media). BT cover every home, but Virgin Media serve only the most populous areas. BT are progressively upgrading their POTS network, while Virgin's network was FTTC from the start.

BT only bother upgrading areas to fibre where they've got competition from Virgin Media, so people tend to either have the choice between two 100mbps fibre providers or none at all. The disparity in broadband speeds is growing rapidly, because the areas not served by Virgin Media tend to be those furthest from BT's exchanges and hence having the slowest ADSL speeds.

I'm not normally one to advocate government intervention, but the situation seems absolutely absurd.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by rayiner on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @12:23PM (#5526115)
What's absurd about it? It doesn't cost dramatically more to wire up a mile of fiber in a dense urban area (and in fact can be cheaper if you can re-use existing utility conduits), but can hit far more customers. So why shouldn't you expect fiber providers to only hit the densely populated areas?

And you can have government intervention, but much of the US's woes are the result of that intervention. US municipalities created all these monopolies in exchange for the guarantee that they would serve everyone and not just the most profitable people, and unsurprisingly those monopolies don't have much incentive to keep up with the latest in technology. But that's precisely the bargain all those municipalities made! There is no free lunch here.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by vitobcn on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @12:59PM (#5526409)
It is absurd because if BT or AT&T wanted to upgrade certain areas to the new network to improve service to their consumers and gain additional profits out of it, they wouldn't choose cities where there already is a competitor with an equivalent fast network.

For example, if AT&T is convinced they are capable of providing a speedy 1 Gbps network, when Google announced they were going to Kansas City last year, AT&T could have decided to go to Austin and improve their service in the area.

However, this is not how it's playing out at all. Instead of choosing another densely populated area (only 2 cities in the US have this type of network, so there's plenty to choose from), they select (or signal) they will go only to where the competition is, and that is pretty absurd IMHO (not from a gaming theory perspective though).

Either way, Google's strategy in this case is flawless, and regardless of what other network providers do, it signals to the consumers that the technology is available and at reasonable costs. Therefore, it will start creating the push for network upgrades in cities where Google never intended to go in the first place at all, which is what this is all about. Having a fast and reliable network available to as many users as possible serves Google's interests (incidentally the consumers needs too), and that's what they are pushing for.

Regarding AT&T, they are signaling being willing to bring to the ground any business models relying on such upgrades, which as relevant as it could be to Comcast or Verizon, it's meaningless to Google as these investments are literally sunk money to defend their traditional business model.

In the same way they already defended in the past for other entrenched markets which could undermine their advertising business model, such as: Android (mobile market, avoiding iOS powerful position) or Chrome (internet browsers and default search provider settings).

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by jdietrich on Thursday April 11, 2013 @04:14AM (#5530630)
The absurdity is the duplication of infrastructure. Half of the money being spent on providing fibre connections is effectively wasted, because the market incentives do not align with the priorities of society.

You present a false dichotomy between libertarianism and plutocracy. The US is exceptionally bad at market regulation by developed-world standards, largely because of how politics in the US is funded. The obvious counter-example is South Korea, where the government are providing billions of usd in funding to ensure universal service of high-speed broadband. That's no free lunch either, but the costs of a digital divide can't be ignored.

Broadband is an increasingly vital infrastructure, arguably as important as roads or mains water. The national economy is increasingly dependent on the ubiquitous availability of fast internet connections. We should take seriously the social responsibility to provide and maintain that infrastructure.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by jiggy2011 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @04:30AM (#5523874)
Yes, not to mention some rural areas which have no broadband at all and are still on 56k or satellite. In some cases locals have taken it into their own hands and established coops to build their own broadband systems.

Even if you have no interest in the internet, stuff like that has to hurt your house price.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by rayiner on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @12:24PM (#5526121)
And it should affect house prices. It's inefficient to have people living in the middle of goddamn nowhere, and it makes no sense for the government to constantly subsidize doing so.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by chrisro on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:23PM (#5528296)
Um, middle of nowhere is where food is grown and livestock are raised. It'd be disastrous to not have people living there doing these things. As more services move online, it is a public good to ensure all constituencies have access.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by mhurron on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @12:36PM (#5526240)
'Middle of nowhere' is sometimes 2 miles from a town (with cable) or a mile from a regional airport.

We finally got 3MB DSL last year.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by noselasd on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:08AM (#5524841)
This is why Google Fiber is (probably) not going to have that big of an impact as people hope it will.

Internet connectivity is geographically bounded, and to be disruptive, you need to cover most areas. This is quite unlike other disruptive technology that e.g. Apple have produced, which isn't constrained by geography.

If Google Fiber never comes to your state/county/city, you'll have just as crappy and expensive service as you had before - the existing providers will try to squeeze out as much as possible - which they can continue to do until there's competition in that geographic area

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by runn1ng on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:55AM (#5525497)
The upside of living in a large city is the plethora of available competition for almost everything. That has always be the case before the internet was even born.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by ukandy on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:31AM (#5524267)
The government targets for rural areas is a joke, and damaging to the economy. Not helped by 4G rollout 'issues'.

We have a microwave link on the church tower to cover the village here. It really shouldn't be left up to the locals to manage their own network.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by ricw on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:50AM (#5524320)
Why not? You get a better service and its likely going to be cheaper. I wouldn't see any advantage of having companies like AT&T neglect such areas. Get the real competition going.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by jiggy2011 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @07:46AM (#5524497)
A lot of these services can be pretty laggy and at times unreliable. Good broadband ultimately needs fiber which requires capital and people who can dig up streets etc.

Most telcos will work on the basis of recouping this after X number of years, but can only do so because they have deep pockets. Putting fiber into west london is a no brainer, putting fiber into a village with ~300 residents , half of whom are over 65; not so much.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by officemonkey on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @12:01PM (#5525937)
>putting fiber into a village with ~300 residents , half of whom are over 65

Actually, that's probably a no brainer as well. A village of 300 can't cost _that_ much, and improving network connectivity to a small town means that town becomes more attractive to the people who will be inheriting and buying the homes once the 65-year olds shuffle off this mortal coil.

Also, don't knock seniors. My 77-year old father blogs daily and my 71-year old mother spends a lot of her time playing with her new iPad mini. They live in a small town with new fiber.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by walshemj on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @07:18PM (#5528862)
It can cost a metric fuckton of money. When I worked up in scotland for BT the press officer for Scotland told me a story about how BT had miscalculated the cost of providing service to a very remote location and ended up having to pay around £200,000 to provide service to one property.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by officemonkey on Friday April 12, 2013 @06:34AM (#5537663)
Actually, that's not a bad price, considering that they get to use the outlier every time they need to justify not providing service to remote customers.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by walshemj on Saturday April 13, 2013 @07:25PM (#5545100)
Well it was over the max allowed for providing service - normally they hit the government up for subsidy to provide service to the highlands and islands.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by talmand on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:15AM (#5525244)
I don't know about the rest of the world, but often in the US the choice is between laggy, unreliable local services or no service at all. Much too often the company that is supposed to service rural areas can't be bothered because it isn't economically viable. Although, it doesn't stop them from suing the locals because it's an unfair economic advantage if the locals decide to build their own.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by jeffasinger on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @12:05PM (#5525980)
My Grandmother (75) is the member of my family with the highest speed connection.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by r00fus on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @01:50PM (#5526770)
If national governments weren't thoroughly corrupted by the vested telecom interests, they would fund local-owned efforts to set their own baselines, allowing profit-driven enterprises to address sub-areas that are profitable within that area to deliver even better access.

The problem is that it's the opposite (at least in the USA) - state and national governments are lobbied by the telecom/cable industry to pass laws prohibiting local initiatives, so local governments have to give massive subsidies or concessions in order to get anything.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by ukandy on Thursday April 11, 2013 @07:16AM (#5531159)
In the UK it's normally a few local individuals bonding ADSL lines together at point x where the service is an acceptable speed. A few microwave links later and it's ready to be consumed by 10-100 people. It's not real competition, it's not cheap, and it's not well support.

It's a poor replacement for fibre to the cabinet.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by earnubs on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @07:43AM (#5524484)
I'm currently trying to buy a house in UK, I check each potential purchase for distance to cabinet and FTCC on the cabinet. In most cases not having a nearby cabinet (<2KM) has been the deciding factor in not putting an offer in on that house (typically in this area that means a speed of ~1MBps).
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by officemonkey on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:50AM (#5524149)
That is exactly what is happening where my parents live (in upstate New York.) The local telephone company now has fiber throughout the village and a WIFI network for customers that's accessible from most places in the village.

Their base-line internet service is roughly five times faster than my base-line internet service (from AT&T) in Chicago.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by UnoriginalGuy on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:00AM (#5523982)
In the UK in particular both broadband AND cellular/mobile service should be nationalised.

Both businesses and consumers NEED good quality infrastructure at an affordable price. Essentially the country's economic growth directly depends on it.

To accomplish that the government should control all fibre, all phone lines, and all cell towers. It should then re-sell access to these things to ISPs/telephone companies.

With this in place you might still buy your cable from Virgin and your mobile phone service from Orange, but Virgin and Orange would be renting space on the government's infrastructure to accomplish it.

Similar to the Network Rail model but less terrible.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by ricw on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:53AM (#5524327)
That's a terrible idea. You probably can't remember how bad the telephone services were when they were nationalised. Having to wait 6-12 months for a line was the norm. Prices were high.

People seems to forget just how badly state run services typically are, even compared to AT&T and the like..

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by anomie on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @07:06AM (#5524363)
My father was a surveyor in the city of London who worked on new office construction. He used to tell me how back in the days of nationalised phone service the first thing you did when you were building a new office building, before you'd even laid the foundations, was to order the phone lines, otherwise they wouldn't be ready in time for opening the building
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by glomph on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @07:44AM (#5524494)
Doesn't that makes sense anyway? It isn't like have to get your phone lines after anything else.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by talmand on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @10:13AM (#5525231)
No, it does not. In most cases it's not as if they had to lay down new copper from a central office to the new building or would have to run copper throughout the building. If the thing was built on top of existing infrastructure then it "should" not be a big deal to hook the building into said infrastructure. Of course, I say this without knowing the quality of the infrastructure in question.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by kayoone on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @07:07AM (#5524365)
infrastructure provided by the government which sells it to ISPs that hunt for customers. That models work pretty well already in many cities and small countries.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by jdietrich on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:58AM (#5525148)
The Network Rail is what we've got already - BT Openreach provides the infrastructure, which is resold by myriad companies who have access on equal terms. The problem is that Openreach has no universal service commitment. Their customers are the ISPs, not end-users.

We've had nationalisation and it was a complete shambles. BT had no interest whatsoever in providing Broadband until Telewest came along. You couldn't even buy your own phone or answering machine until 1982 - before then, only a BT engineer was allowed to connect equipment to their network.

The straightforward solution is simply to offer a grant or tax credit to any company that provides the first high-speed connection to a house. Progressively increase the subsidy over a number of months or years to create a Dutch auction between BT, Virgin and whoever else throws their hat in the ring. This would progressively push up the LTV of customers relative to the cost of acquisition, creating the maximum number of connections at the minimum cost to the treasury.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by WhaleBiologist on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:08AM (#5524211)
It's a good idea in theory.

In practice a conservative government will end up selling off and privatizing the company. Subsequent governments will still act like they own it though, because that one company now controls 99% of the country's infrastructure. The share price will then stagnate forever.

Kinda damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by eyko on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:41AM (#5524295)
Can a conservative government also privatize public roads and pathways? I mean, nowadays it can be argued that broadband/communication is as important as the transportation network. It's at the core of our day to day communications. Although if public roads can be sold to be managed by private companies, then we're screwed in both situations. But I'd rather have my tax money going to pay for infrastructure and innovation than to bailout this or that bank.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by ams6110 on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @08:44AM (#5524706)
There are privatized "public" roads in the US. They are called "tollways"
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by mjallday on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @09:30AM (#5524985)
Another model is to separate the entities that own and sell the infrastructure from the entities who own and sell the service. It's all still privatized but there is no monopoly.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by walshemj on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:06AM (#5524008)
Even the SWP and Keith Have given up on that one :-) and network rail has worked so well hasn't it NOT!
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by Tomdarkness on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:14AM (#5524227)
To be fair, the current telephone network, including fibre is owned by BT Openreach. Under agreement with ofcom they have to provide equal and fair access to their network to any company who wants it.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by Tomdarkness on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @06:08AM (#5524207)
That is totally not true. I know of several people, myself included, who now have access to BT infinity and never have and still don't have access to virgin media.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by Symmetry on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @12:20PM (#5526091)
Well, in theory you can make just as good a case for the government providing internet access as the government providing roads. In practice I see two major problems, though. First, norms against the government denying the use of the roads to people are very strong, but there aren't really the same norms against the government refusing to provide the internet to people considered bad. The upgrade cycle for roads is also much, much slower than for internet connections.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by jimmaswell on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @12:33PM (#5526209)
It's a lot easier to injure or kill someone with a car on a road than on the internet, though. I hope nothing like an internet license happens.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by EliRivers on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @05:46AM (#5524129)
As a counterpoint based purely in practical terms, there are nonetheless almost a dozen companies competing to actually take my money in exchange for a service, many of which are far faster and far cheaper (and without any data limit) than typical offerings in the US.

True, I have no need for fast speeds; 20 Mbs is more than enough for me.

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by petercooper on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @12:19PM (#5526081)
BT only bother upgrading areas to fibre where they've got competition from Virgin Media

I live in a small town in a very rural part of the country and there's no hope of cable ever reaching us.. but we got Infinity 2 FTTC last year FWIW. I think the council threw grant money at BT though ;-)

Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by driverdan on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:15AM (#5525624)
The best kind of government intervention in this case is to eliminiate the duopoly and open the market to more competition. The more competition the better the service and prices will be.
Re:AT&T Pretends It, Too, Will Build A 1 Gigabit Network by phillmv on Wednesday April 10, 2013 @11:25AM (#5525690)
It's not a legal duopoly, innit. It's just a business with extremely high barriers to entry given all the infrastructure.

The only tools at your disposal is some kind of subsidy or legislate them into eating the costs of laying down infrastructure in less profitable areas.