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Re:Why I created Comic Sans by simonsarris on Saturday March 09, 2013 @11:00PM (#5350641)
Comic Sans as a font needs no defense.

Just like a good band with bad fans, we don't balk at Comic Sans, we balk at the people who use comic sans for inappropriate things. (Or to use a more computery analogy, there's nothing wrong with capital letters or all-caps, but some users use them inappropriately).

City memo minutes should not be distributed in Comic Sans. Wedding invitations should probably not be in Comic Sans. The Surrey police should not have released a memo on rape and sexual assault in Comic Sans[1].

There are times when you do not want to be unserious and insincere, and some people are, and its embarrassing. Comic Sans is just a vector for that, but if you find fault with it, its still the people who are at fault.

[1] http://i.imgur.com/C6QY1yp.jpg

(The Surrey Police strike again! http://i.imgur.com/Kn68ubk.jpg)

(the compulsive designers in us will notice the logo at the top of that one is off-center, too)

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by NoPiece on Saturday March 09, 2013 @11:19PM (#5350684)
There is definitely an internet lynch mob mentality on this even though the inappropriate use critique is spot on. You'd have to be a brave designer to use it, even in an befitting way. Apps like Balsamiq have dropped it and subbed in look-a-likes just so people have cover to say it isn't Comic Sans.

http://www.balsamiq.com/products/mockups/font

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by TheAnimus on Monday March 11, 2013 @07:04AM (#5355963)
It's a bit of a craze to mock things, we like to be pack animals feasting on the fresh carcus afterall. Just search Nickleback on Reddit.

However it's bizzarely useful in a way. Say you've got a trail version of an application, you can have a penalty of users who run the app for more than a month without a purchase. Simply flick the font in to Comic Sans. You gain geek credit, even some free blog advertising under the Comic Sans lol bandwagon.

That then creates more posative feedback, people like to read things they are already vaugely familiar with, so you get that natural circle of hate.

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by wfunction on Sunday March 10, 2013 @07:28PM (#5354056)
My professors used it on many lecture slides... very few people until it was pointed out to them, and once that happened then they couldn't focus!
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by supercanuck on Sunday March 10, 2013 @12:23AM (#5350846)
You can add the Pope's official commemorative photobook as another bad example.

(http://www.vatican.va/bxvi/omaggio/index_en.html)

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by pbhjpbhj on Sunday March 10, 2013 @05:51AM (#5351291)
Which font would you have used?
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by jammmuel on Sunday March 10, 2013 @06:39AM (#5351369)
Something with more gravitas. Palatino?
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by fusiongyro on Monday March 11, 2013 @12:42AM (#5354944)
How about Trajan, the Movie Font?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t87QKdOJNv8

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by pbhjpbhj on Sunday March 10, 2013 @05:30PM (#5353558)
Zapf makes a mean font. IIRC I used his Chancery on my wedding invitations. Pity Sistina is all-caps otherwise that would have been apposite.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by eksith on Sunday March 10, 2013 @06:49AM (#5351403)
Too "Romanesque", I would have gone with Webdings.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by Samuel_Michon on Sunday March 10, 2013 @05:59AM (#5351306)
"Comic Sans as a font needs no defense."

I disagree, it's just not a good font. It has zero contrast (not suitable for display text and print), no harmony (not suitable for body text), and it's poorly hinted (not suitable for screen text). It looks more like finger painting than comic lettering [1]. It's not even a true sans serif; in the article, the author admits to cheating.

There are way better fonts that Microsoft could've licensed for MS Bob, like Helvetica Rounded [2] or Dom Casual [3].

[1] http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/hanoded/inky-fingers/

[2] http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/adobe/helvetica-rounded/

[3] http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/paratype/dom-casual/

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by tripzilch on Sunday March 10, 2013 @09:05AM (#5351697)
You can make a lot of arguments against Comic Sans but these are either not the right ones, or you're going to need to back them up with some explanations what you really mean (because merely stating typographic jargon doesn't make it factual).

So, I'm just going to call you out on a few things. I might not know all about typography, but I do know quite a bit. I would say more than the average person, so if I don't get what you mean really, it's probably a good idea to expand on it, if you stand behind those statements. And if I got the wrong ideas from your short critique, please do educate us, I'm always willing to learn.

Hinting. Can you give me an example of how it's poorly hinted? From what I've always seen, Comic Sans is actually hinted rather well, and in my opinion actually gets better at smaller point sizes (mainly because with less pixels the shapes and kerning become more regular).

Contrast. Now about the zero contrast, I suppose what you really meant is that the lines are all equal thickness, which is something different than "contrast" because you're going to have appearance of heavier weight at the connections of the lines, which is why Helvetica and Arial actually have varying stroke widths, to give the appearance of uniform weight. You can argue this gives Comic Sans bad or uneven contrast, and I'd be inclined to agree. But zero contrast doesn't make sense to me when referring to Comic Sans.

Additionally, how does this automatically disqualify a font from print or display? Especially really large display, I've seen it in large rainbow coloured logos at children's daycare centres, and it works just fine there.

Harmony. I did some Googling to make sure, but the only typographical meaning of the term "harmony" that I've been able to find is the one that I already knew, and it's not something you can attribute to a font. It's to do with the rhythm and contrasts of spacing and weights (and more) on a page or part of a page. You can say it's hard to make a harmonious design with Comic Sans, but you cannot say Comic Sans does not "have" harmony.

I do agree it's not particularly suitable for body text (unless you happen to have dyslexia, but there's prettier fonts that help there, unfortunately they're not free).

(Sans) serif. Not a true sans-serif, how is this bad? The author explains his choice and I think that particular choice was a great one. In today's digital world, differences between Il|1 can be crucial, and can't always be inferred from context, most typographical conventions followed out of a need for medium-specific legibility, and I'm afraid you're going to have to deal with the fact that mixing serif and sans-serif is now a valid design choice.

I still don't particularly like Comic Sans myself either, but for different reasons (that I explained elsewhere in this thread).

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by coldtea on Sunday March 10, 2013 @06:20AM (#5351336)
>I disagree, it's just not a good font. It has zero contrast (not suitable for display text and print), no harmony (not suitable for body text), and it's poorly hinted (not suitable for screen text).

Which is beside the point. It wasn't supposed to be used for body text or print in small sizes. And it doesn't have to be hinted because it's not meant to be used for long form screen text.

Would you call a title font "bad" because it's not suitable for body text?

As for it "not even being a true sans serif", there are several fonts that cross those boundaries while being perfectly fine. Not being a true "sans/serif" is not some badge of dishonour.

Comic Sans is a good font because it is perfectly suited to convey the message people use it for: child-like, friendliness, common folk-syness etc. As such it's great for personal posters, party invitations, signs, yard sales, elementary school signs, etc.

Notice that even if that wasn't the usage intended by its creators, it's still a good font, because it found it's own niche.

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by lloeki on Sunday March 10, 2013 @06:40AM (#5351374)
I found the last example pretty convincing: I did not recognise Chalkboard, and the first part seemed readable to me to the point I said myself "Well, Comic Sans is not so bad finally"... and then the last line instantly jumped at me due to kerning and baseline. Comic Sans glyphs seem to each stand on their own, unable to keep themselves together to form a word. Chalkboard is far from perfect (see k-e kern) but it is way more readable, even for small text or stand-alone words.

The case against Comic Sans in undue context is due to the funny glyphs, while the case against Comic Sans vs other comic fonts is due not to the glyphs but to the whitespace around them.

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by coldtea on Sunday March 10, 2013 @08:01AM (#5351547)
>Comic Sans glyphs seem to each stand on their own, unable to keep themselves together to form a word. The case against Comic Sans in undue context is due to the funny glyphs, while the case against Comic Sans vs other comic fonts is due not to the glyphs but to the whitespace around them.

This whitespace and keming problems though might add to the naive appeal of the font. Like, for example, bad perspective and distorted proportions make a drawing more child-like.

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by SourPatch on Sunday March 10, 2013 @07:49PM (#5354129)
> keming

Is that a typographical pun?

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by qu4z-2 on Tuesday March 12, 2013 @12:49AM (#5360251)
I'm not sure if it's technically a pun, but it's definitely a typographical joke.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by lloeki on Sunday March 10, 2013 @12:20PM (#5352420)
Absolutely. This is most probably wanted in the second graphic example, where the lo-fi aspect and the collage of pictures from different sources would make any form of rigor look uncanny.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by drewmck on Sunday March 10, 2013 @12:46PM (#5352497)
Studies show kids prefer Comic Sans for screen reading vs. common serif and sans-serif fonts (namely, Arial, Times, Courier). They prefer it for both appearance and readability: http://t.co/P3ebZjUi

So, if you're designing for kids, these things seem to matter less. Perhaps there's a better alternative not explored (marker felt, etc.) but there are use cases for these typefaces that adults disagree with for technical reasons.

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by Samuel_Michon on Sunday March 10, 2013 @02:19PM (#5352827)
The study you linked to found that kids read text set in Arial and Comic Sans at the same speed.

The kids did indicate they found Comic Sans most attractive, but their options were limited to Times, Courier, Arial and Comic Sans. I'm willing to bet that if Comic Sans had been substituted by any other cartoon or paintbrush font, the result would've been the same.

Because kids can't read at high speeds yet, sans serif fonts at large sizes work best for them. That's why so many K-8 schoolbooks and illustrated children's books use Gill Sans [1], a much better font for the purpose, in my opinion.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gill_Sans

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by Surio on Sunday March 10, 2013 @03:32PM (#5353128)
I use Gill Sans on Presentations! Interesting bit of trivia/factoid about Gill Sans!
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by ZeroGravitas on Monday March 11, 2013 @02:22AM (#5355202)
If you want interesting trivia, try the "personal life" section of Eric Gill's Wikipedia article though I warn you, it may well put you off using his fonts.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by Surio on Monday March 11, 2013 @06:21AM (#5355843)
That bit of trivia about the font creator (as opposed to the font) I definitely didn't need to know. Blecchhh!

I ought to have, (but didn't heed) your warning, and you are so right! Now I am really torn! At what point does one disassociate the person(ality) from the art? (similar to any discussion on Wagner's works today!)

>> it may well put you off using his fonts

I believe you are very right there! I am actually pretty pissed off with the man and his works now!

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by egeozcan on Sunday March 10, 2013 @05:35AM (#5351265)
Actually there are better alternatives which can replace Comic Sans entirely but to the newbie wannabe designer who wants to get something out, if you argue this, you get a response as if you've recommended ruby to a php developer (Ok, maybe not that strong). The activism against them look quite similar: http://www.sitepoint.com/friends-dont-let-friends-use-comic-... vs http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de... </stereotyping>
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by JDGM on Monday March 11, 2013 @12:38AM (#5354939)
"There are times when you do not want to be unserious and insincere, and some people are, and its embarrassing. Comic Sans is just a vector for that, but if you find fault with it, its still the people who are at fault."

I don't understand what this means, could you clarify please?

I love your Surrey Police links and comments. I'm not sure if it's in poor taste to laugh, but frankly I find them hysterical!

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by gegenschall on Sunday March 10, 2013 @12:34AM (#5350873)
> Just like a good band with bad fans

Actually, as a band you have a certain say in which fans you'll going to have.

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by jQueryIsAwesome on Sunday March 10, 2013 @04:16AM (#5351158)
Depends on what you mean by "say"; if you mean gender I think is true. But if you consider people who like just one music genre and can stay motivated and loyal only because of that then you don't have too much say about who will be your fans, if you like trash metal it doesn't matter if you have a PHD from Harvard and your social circle is mostly composed by honored students, because the genre you may appel to a very wide range of people for which you have little to none control (unless you are wealthy and can create your own music label, gigs scenary and location, publicity and media exposure in general.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by digitalengineer on Sunday March 10, 2013 @04:56AM (#5351214)
Kurt Cobain sure did. By cross-dressing he made Nirvana have a lot less appeal for the heavy metal fans.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by coldtea on Sunday March 10, 2013 @06:23AM (#5351340)
Really? Heavy Metal fans were into cross dressing ever since the seventies. Including gay all-leather biker chic, long curly bubblegum hair and tights in the eighties...
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by digitalengineer on Sunday March 10, 2013 @08:40AM (#5351639)
Okay, I'm no expert on heave metal. Perhaps another kind of audience.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by laumars on Sunday March 10, 2013 @09:22AM (#5351763)
I think him releasing accessible anthems that had widespread popular appeal did far more to isolate Navana from the core metal elitists than any styling choices Kurt may have made.

Plus it's not as if metal bands were against 'glamming' up in the first place. In fact it became it's own sub-genre.

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by factorizer on Sunday March 10, 2013 @05:29AM (#5351254)
also the atrocious guitar playing and constant mumbling helped a lot in that department. but we digress. on the topic: i like comic sans. it looks friendly. there, i said it.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by PerryCox on Sunday March 10, 2013 @08:34AM (#5351623)
> also the atrocious guitar playing

You're joking right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoiUpe7N3D0

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by factorizer on Sunday March 10, 2013 @10:22AM (#5352022)
alright, i was (kinda) joking. but i don't think that the guitar playing was the unique selling value of nirvana. the song writing was stellar though.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by epsylon on Monday March 11, 2013 @10:44AM (#5356990)
Heavy metal and grunge are two very different genres.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by factorizer on Sunday March 10, 2013 @05:27AM (#5351251)
minor nitpick: it's thrash metal, from thrashing. not trash as in garbage.
Re:Why I created Comic Sans by derleth on Monday March 11, 2013 @12:55AM (#5354975)
> there's nothing wrong with capital letters or all-caps

In the transportation world, all-caps is known to be harder to read than mixed-case in fixed-message signs:

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/5892/is-all-caps...

All-caps is also generally less legible than all-lower-case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps (in particular reference 7, Tinker, Miles A. (1963). Legibility of Print. Ames, Iowa: Iowa State University Press. p. 65. ISBN 6316674.)

My point is that it isn't just a matter of taste. There are known, quantified ways in which all-caps is worse. Ditto Comic Sans, if you read another response to your post.

Re:Why I created Comic Sans by joezydeco on Monday March 11, 2013 @01:56PM (#5358454)
Re: transportation, there's a lot of interesting data collected on the design of Clearview, the new typeface for the US interstate road system:

http://clearviewhwy.com/ResearchAndDesign/legibilityStudies....