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Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by rwmj on Thursday March 07, 2013 @01:47PM (#5339347)
I hope that's not what the article is suggesting. The way I read it, it's more like what Google and Facebook do: very sophisticated tracking of multiple factors (your IP, geolocation, browser identity, second-factor, etc) to find out if it's really "you" logging in, or someone who's just got your password.

The problems are:

(1) This will never work for a single vendor (unless it's a massive vendor like Amazon, and they're already doing it). It's something the bank has to do so it can tie together all the information about you.

(2) Banks have proven to be totally useless at online security in the past, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

(3) Google-style security can be a bit annoying when you really are logging in from an internet cafe in a foreign country.

Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by brandonb on Thursday March 07, 2013 @02:11PM (#5339491)
That's exactly it. It's important to look at a whole bunch of factors. For example, fraudsters tend to go directly to the payments page, whereas good users will browse around the site before making a purchase. There are tons of little signals like that which allow you to distinguish legitimate users from the fraudsters.

We don't do things like two-factor auth -- in general, we believe in minimizing friction. It's a better user experience, and if you can prevent fraud without burdening the user, why not?

We have more information with some examples of signals our system uses here: https://siftscience.com/large-scale-machine-learning

Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by paulsutter on Thursday March 07, 2013 @03:21PM (#5339941)
Isn't the first rule of fraud detection not to talk about rules you use to detect fraud? ;)
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by enjo on Thursday March 07, 2013 @07:06PM (#5341280)
A long time ago we decreased fraud by a significant amount simply by putting a little message on our payment form that we detected fraud. Stolen numbers and identities are really valuable to fraudsters, they tend to prey on merchants they think they can get it by.
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by solistice on Thursday March 07, 2013 @03:41PM (#5340072)
It is. If you spill the beans that you are checkin staying on site and browsing before buying, and it'll take a week till there's a tool for simulating that.
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by segmondy on Thursday March 07, 2013 @04:59PM (#5340608)
There is no security through obscurity only illusions of it.
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by wtracy on Thursday March 07, 2013 @09:25PM (#5341772)
Will people please stop saying that in this context?

Merchant-side fraud prevention schemes are not security. They are heuristics for reducing the number of bad transactions that the vendor has to handle.

Algorithms should be air-tight. Yes, the best way to ensure that they are is to make them public. Heuristics by definition are not airtight. The best way to get utility from them is to keep their nature hidden from parties trying to abuse the system.

Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by dalore on Thursday March 07, 2013 @07:04PM (#5341273)
It's analysing behaviour for patterns. If you let out what patterns you're looking for then those patterns change.
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by sheri on Friday March 08, 2013 @03:37AM (#5342522)
Wouldn't the patterns change after the fraudsters realize they are not working?
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by solistice on Friday March 08, 2013 @07:26PM (#5346678)
I'm not saying something like that will hold forever. It might take 2 months to figure out that sites check for that, and 2 weeks (/days) to code it up. If you make the information on your heuristic public, those 2 months just drop out straight.
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by pfredrich on Thursday March 07, 2013 @04:15PM (#5340316)
It's a trap.
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by MakeUsersWant on Friday March 08, 2013 @03:17AM (#5342483)
Maybe you could add the predictable human irrationalities as an input signal. For example decision paralysis - I'd expect legit customers to take a bit longer for pages that require a decision. Or the way people react to discounts - a fraudster wouldn't care, but a legit customer would be happier and thus less a little bit less focused.
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by RougeFemme on Thursday March 07, 2013 @05:29PM (#5340798)
Re: the first point. . .no one can go directly to the payment page, don't you have to have something to purchase first? And if, as a user, I've been to the site before, I might select one item and then go directly to payment.
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by Draco6slayer on Thursday March 07, 2013 @09:00PM (#5341700)
The idea behind machine learning is that no single data point does the changing. It's about modelling you with a computer and determining if the model matches current models of fraudsters. If you do go directly to the payment page, you use tor for your browsing, you auto-delete cookies, and whatever else they check for, you become more clearly likely to be committing fraud. This does not mean, still, that you are committing fraud, only that you probably ought to be inquired about.

It's the same thing with, say, shoplifting. If you own a thrift store, and you see someone come in with a heavy coat, you might think nothing of it. But if that person acts suspiciously and holds his hands in his pockets, you may inquire as to whether that person is shoplifting. Of course, people do walk around suspiciously with hands in the pockets of big coats who are not shoplifting, but false positives like that are removed when the human element steps in at the last stage.

Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by dylangs1030 on Thursday March 07, 2013 @07:02PM (#5341260)
To play devil's advocate, if I click through x pages while preparing to defraud your website, I'm okay according to (one of) your metrics?

That doesn't seem very defensible.

Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by olefoo on Thursday March 07, 2013 @07:31PM (#5341389)
That's only one of several signals they are tracking. There's also what you're ordering, where you're coming from, if you have a history on the site or not. Each one of those getting a pair of scores (likely_fraud, likely_legit) and the decision being made on the balance of probabilities at the time of purchase.

And remember that the goal isn't to absolutely eliminate fraud, it's to reduce it to the point where it has negligible impact on profitability.

Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by Retric on Thursday March 07, 2013 @10:30PM (#5341935)
On that note changing the form to require more information as your estimated risk goes up seems to be the ideal compromise.

Except that enables people to gain information about your fraud detection system.

Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by tommccabe on Thursday March 07, 2013 @02:04PM (#5339451)
Threatmetrix assigns a fraud risk/score based on multiple factors, including the geolocation, IP, & browser. Additionally (to your point #1), they anonymize data across their customers and alert if a device has been flagged in a fraudulent transaction elsewhere. On top of their own customers, they partner with Cybersource so there is quite a network of data behind their fraud analysis.

(I don't work for Threatmetrix- but I do use their product as provided via Cybersource.)

Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by brandonb on Thursday March 07, 2013 @02:27PM (#5339608)
Hey Tom -- I'd love to see if we could help with fraud even above and beyond what Cybersource/TM do. Feel free to e-mail me: [email protected]!
Re:Why are payment forms so complicated? by fivre on Friday March 08, 2013 @05:40AM (#5342804)
Google's bogon detection is also annoying if you (legitimately) use proxy/VPN services.

Seriously, they blocked the entirety of Linode's IPv6 range and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

Well, you can submit a false flag report, but Google customer support for suspected bots isn't great.